The Greatest Obstacle

[Frbrendan]

I have been aware for some time of the friction between Roman Catholics and their brother Catholics in Eastern sui juris Catholic Churches, such as Melkite, Ruthenian, and so on.

I will admit that I have felt some of that friction myself, when I have attempted to interact with members of the Traditional Catholicism Forum.

I feel that some of the people there just want everything to go back to the Latin Mass, junk the N.O., and have all of the Eastern Churches relegated to the back of the bus. Furthermore, I am aware that I am not the only one that feels like I am trying to squeeze myself into the last seat.

However, instead of getting all red under the collar and forging lightning bolts to hurl at those on the TC forum, I think that first, we should begin to pray.

Polemics are never going to gain friends or influence people. Posting on the Trad Cath forum simply infuriates the people there, to the point where we are threatened with suspension or banning if we do. So I would like to suggest a better way.

We are called by God to pray for those that oppose us.This is not to mean only the Taliban, but anyone that opposes us. That means that we are all called to pray for those people that spitefully misuse us. We are called by God to pray for the Latin Triumphalists (and the SSPX, and the sede vacantists as well). As Christians, we should not lower ourselves to the level of ad hominem attacks. We shouldn’t cast aspersions on their Liturgy. After all, it is just as valid as the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil.

We have in our Churches a great gift. We have the Divine Liturgies, the Liturgy of the Hours, the beauty of our churches, with icons all around. We have the Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, the most beautiful single act of corporate worship, (IMHO) that has ever graced the Table of the Lord. We have an active Diaconate, and Deacons that serve with joy. We have incense, and the ringing of the bells on the censer. We have Liturgies that impinge upon all of our senses. Our priests are a very great gift from God.

So you see, we have all these treasures, and we are called to share them. So I ask you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for the people that have given us the greatest grief. Pray for those that think that the EF is the Mass of the Ages, handed down from God on the Day of Pentecost. Pray for those who think we are not really Catholics, because we do Mass funny. Pray for those that tell us that the Latin Mass is superior to anything that we have.

Don’t yell at them, don’t break the rules imposed on us by our Roman moderators, don’t go on tirades because they fail (or refuse) to see the beauty and riches that we have to share. Weep for them, if need be, because they have scales in front of their eyes.

Pray!

 

[Trishie]

Please exemplify in us the love that You desire to receive, our God,
“Anyone who says ‘I love God’, and hates his brother is a liar, since a person who does not love the brother that he can see, cannot love God whom he has never seen.” [1 letter of John 4:20-21]
"Love each other as brothers should, and have a profound respect for each other…If any of the saints are in need you must share with them; and you must make hospitality your special care.” [Romans 12:9-13]

“Do not let your hearts be troubled
Trust in God still, and trust in Me
There are many rooms in My Father’s house;
if there were not, I should have told you.
I am going now to prepare a place for you,
and after I have gone and prepared you a place,
I shall return to take you with Me;
so that where I am, you may be too.
You know way to the place where I am going…
I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
No one can come to the Father except through Me.” [John 14:1-4, 6-6]

Prayer for understanding of others

Jesus, please open us to receive each other with love, so that we no longer betray God’s Love that re-creates us in each moment of life. Reveal to us our sins against charity, and heal us of fears and prejudices that lead to judgement of others.

How easily even the generous Christian reduces others to categories, judging them with unconscious pride and lack of empathy! How carelessly, with convincing appraisal and bias, we dismiss others in their seeming sin, error or foolishness. How often we misjudge them in their difficulties and achievements, and underestimate their intrinsic worth as persons!

Jesus, please forgive us that we presume to deal uncharitably with anyone! Each person is Your own creation lovingly spoken out of Yourself in the private language of love chosen for each alone! No matter how different from one’s own character or journey, the path and meaning of each person is treasured mystery hidden within You!

Let us share in Your love for others, rejoicing in Your image within them whether evident or not. Let us reverence our dissimilarity and their individuality. Let us be respectful and discreet in our helpfulness. Have mercy on our prayer and goodwill for them, so that we may love them with Your Love. Jesus, I am so sorry for the times I fail to love others wisely and respectfully.

 

[Aramis]

Rev Fr, Bless!

Are we not also called to preach Truth?

Latin Triumphalists frequently spout error… including not a few who spout actual heresy!

 

[Diak]

Dear Fr. Brendan, I think you can see well what Patriarch +Josyp (Slipyj) of blessed memory was getting at when he declared at one of the sessions of the Council: “Forgive us for being Greek Catholics!”

He later also likened our pilgrimage as Greek Catholics to be the carrying of two crosses in the name of Christian unity; namely one of being forceably separated from our Orthodox brethren, and the second of being misunderstood (and sometimes mistreated) by the Latin Catholic majority. Welcome to the world of two crosses.

 

[Frbrendan]

Rev Fr, Bless!

Are we not also called to preach Truth?

Latin Triumphalists frequently spout error… including not a few who spout actual heresy!

Yes, we are called to preach truth. However, the preaching can be done in one of two ways. The first fits along the lines of “a gentle answer turns away wrath.” That is the mode that I try to use at all times.

However, there are times when you have to get the mule’s attention first, so you hit him with a 2x4. Even there, though, if you can possibly do it, try a private message first.

 

[Trishie]

No, please don’t hit the mule with a 2x4…not any animal! There has to be a kinder way, even for a stubborn mule! If he’s stubborn, then perhaps we don’t know the best way to handle who he is…that simile I can’t accept! In hitting the mule with a lump of wood, we are imposing our ideas and perspectives on him. But he’s a mule with his own perspective, his own brain, and he has a right to be who he is. Hit him on the head with a lump of wood gives him pain and fear, and if he responds ‘rightly’ to our view, it may only ever be out of fear, to his mule understanding. He isn’t actually dumb or stubborn. We project that on to him, as we also often project onto other persons. But in his brain he is doing what is right according to his understanding… Okay, leaving the mule standing there pondering the strangeness of human ways!!!

Charity with wisdom always, in every circumstance!

Warm regards, Trishie

 

[Trishie]

Dear Fr Brendon, pardon if I made you appear insensitive when doubtless you were simply joking…of course you’re generous of heart, and I believe you would only ever wish kindness to all people and all creatures.
Thank you for your kind and wise presence amongst us.

God bless you, and warm regards, Trishie

 

[Milliardo]

Father, bless.

Yes, we must pray for them, for those who do not understand or who refuse to understand. As an aside, this is the thing that I mention on another thread…

 

[GALAXYOFGOD]

I have been aware for some time of the friction between Roman Catholics and their brother Catholics in Eastern sui juris Catholic Churches, such as Melkite, Ruthenian, and so on.

I will admit that I have felt some of that friction myself, when I have attempted to interact with members of the Traditional Catholicism Forum.

I feel that some of the people there just want everything to go back to the Latin Mass, junk the N.O., and have all of the Eastern Churches relegated to the back of the bus. Furthermore, I am aware that I am not the only one that feels like I am trying to squeeze myself into the last seat.

However, instead of getting all red under the collar and forging lightning bolts to hurl at those on the TC forum, I think that first, we should begin to pray.

Polemics are never going to gain friends or influence people. Posting on the Trad Cath forum simply infuriates the people there, to the point where we are threatened with suspension or banning if we do. So I would like to suggest a better way.

We are called by God to pray for those that oppose us.This is not to mean only the Taliban, but anyone that opposes us. That means that we are all called to pray for those people that spitefully misuse us. We are called by God to pray for the Latin Triumphalists (and the SSPX, and the sede vacantists as well). As Christians, we should not lower ourselves to the level of ad hominem attacks. We shouldn’t cast aspersions on their Liturgy. After all, it is just as valid as the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil.

We have in our Churches a great gift. We have the Divine Liturgies, the Liturgy of the Hours, the beauty of our churches, with icons all around. We have the Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, the most beautiful single act of corporate worship, (IMHO) that has ever graced the Table of the Lord. We have an active Diaconate, and Deacons that serve with joy. We have incense, and the ringing of the bells on the censer. We have Liturgies that impinge upon all of our senses. Our priests are a very great gift from God.

So you see, we have all these treasures, and we are called to share them. So I ask you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for the people that have given us the greatest grief. Pray for those that think that the EF is the Mass of the Ages, handed down from God on the Day of Pentecost. Pray for those who think we are not really Catholics, because we do Mass funny. Pray for those that tell us that the Latin Mass is superior to anything that we have.

Don’t yell at them, don’t break the rules imposed on us by our Roman moderators, don’t go on tirades because they fail (or refuse) to see the beauty and riches that we have to share. Weep for them, if need be, because they have scales in front of their eyes.

Pray!

 

[GALAXYOFGOD]

I have been aware for some time of the friction between Roman Catholics and their brother Catholics in Eastern sui juris Catholic Churches, such as Melkite, Ruthenian, and so on.

I will admit that I have felt some of that friction myself, when I have attempted to interact with members of the Traditional Catholicism Forum.

I feel that some of the people there just want everything to go back to the Latin Mass, junk the N.O., and have all of the Eastern Churches relegated to the back of the bus. Furthermore, I am aware that I am not the only one that feels like I am trying to squeeze myself into the last seat.

However, instead of getting all red under the collar and forging lightning bolts to hurl at those on the TC forum, I think that first, we should begin to pray.

Polemics are never going to gain friends or influence people. Posting on the Trad Cath forum simply infuriates the people there, to the point where we are threatened with suspension or banning if we do. So I would like to suggest a better way.

We are called by God to pray for those that oppose us.This is not to mean only the Taliban, but anyone that opposes us. That means that we are all called to pray for those people that spitefully misuse us. We are called by God to pray for the Latin Triumphalists (and the SSPX, and the sede vacantists as well). As Christians, we should not lower ourselves to the level of ad hominem attacks. We shouldn’t cast aspersions on their Liturgy. After all, it is just as valid as the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil.

We have in our Churches a great gift. We have the Divine Liturgies, the Liturgy of the Hours, the beauty of our churches, with icons all around. We have the Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, the most beautiful single act of corporate worship, (IMHO) that has ever graced the Table of the Lord. We have an active Diaconate, and Deacons that serve with joy. We have incense, and the ringing of the bells on the censer. We have Liturgies that impinge upon all of our senses. Our priests are a very great gift from God.

So you see, we have all these treasures, and we are called to share them. So I ask you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for the people that have given us the greatest grief. Pray for those that think that the EF is the Mass of the Ages, handed down from God on the Day of Pentecost. Pray for those who think we are not really Catholics, because we do Mass funny. Pray for those that tell us that the Latin Mass is superior to anything that we have.

Don’t yell at them, don’t break the rules imposed on us by our Roman moderators, don’t go on tirades because they fail (or refuse) to see the beauty and riches that we have to share. Weep for them, if need be, because they have scales in front of their eyes.

Pray!

And we say the same of you (scales in front of the eyes )
You see,frbrendan, I detect a succinct how shall we say, smugness in the post? Maybe I am wrong, and if I am, then accept my humblest apology. Truly there has to be many beautiful traditions within Orthodoxy, but don’t think the West is bland; we too:: have ancient and rich traditions. If we did reunite, your esquisite beauties will remain.

Go In Peace To Love And Serve God

Alan

 

[trophybearer]

And we say the same of you (scales in front of the eyes )
You see,frbrendan, I detect a succinct how shall we say, smugness in the post? Maybe I am wrong, and if I am, then accept my humblest apology. Truly there has to be many beautiful traditions within Orthodoxy, but don’t think the West is bland; we too:: have ancient and rich traditions. If we did reunite, your esquisite beauties will remain.

Go In Peace To Love And Serve God

Alan

Fr. Brendan is an Eastern Catholic.

 

[jonnyws]

As a Latin rite Catholic with a love of the Tridentine Mass who’s also doing a Masters in Philosophy and Theology with an emphasis on Liturgy I’d just like to say that the West as a whole can, and needs to, learn a lot from the East about Liturgy. On the flip side I think that philosophical concepts such as Phenomenology that are just now blossoming inside of the Western Church need to be taken up by the East in their Theology.

We have so much to learn from each other! I personally am a huge fan of Alexander Schmemann’s work (Russian Orthodox Liturgasist) but think it is incomplete as it stands purely because it has never been subjected to the critical realist approach found in Western philosophy. This is a perfect example of an Eastern Theologian making statement about Liturgy that the West needs to listen to but yet they prove hard to defend because they cannot surmount the philosophical approaches of the Western world - marry the two together and you end up with a Theology that encompasses both East and West, teaches both truths they need to learn from each other and can stand its own in the realm of secular philosophy. Together we present a truth both spiritually and academically that can’t be ignored by the world - separately we will fall as the West moves away from a profound understanding of Liturgy and the East fails to articulate itself in a way that can survive the nuances of secular realism.

If we are to truly engage with our world and have the Light of Christ shine forth from our Churches again we must light the Pascal candle together. A flame divided but yet not undimmed. We must learn from each others traditions but yet preserve our own distinctions within the fullness of true understanding of each other. Divided in Liturgy but united in a common understanding of Christ. The East needs to engage with secular thought, the West needs to find again the meaning behind liturgy as something seamless that carries the Church in motion towards God rather than just being a collection of particular prayers that bring about an effect.

Pray for unity, understanding and in my case particularly for theologians. Let theologians in both the East and the West realise that we can learn from each other rather than write polemical articles outlining either one or other side as right.

Sorry about the rant but its something I believe passionately about and dedicate a large amount of my research time to.

 

[jonnyws]

Truly there has to be many beautiful traditions within Orthodoxy, but don’t think the West is bland; we too:: have ancient and rich traditions.

This is also true. The West is not Traditionally bland but I believe in the current climate it is the influence of Eastern Liturgical Theology that will help us to understand our own tradition.