The Gregorian modes

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Great thread!

Where did you all learn this btw? I’m a music major but all we pretty much learned about modes in theory/music history was that they just started on different scale degrees. Of course I know more than that know, luckily 🙂 but would be nice to be able to go back and pick up on things I have unknowingly missed.

Jonathan
 
MusicaDonumDei said:
Great thread!

Where did you all learn this btw? I’m a music major but all we pretty much learned about modes in theory/music history was that they just started on different scale degrees. Of course I know more than that know, luckily 🙂 but would be nice to be able to go back and pick up on things I have unknowingly missed.

Jonathan
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I only minored in music, but having been a Catholic and a musician all my life I took the time to study Gregorian chant. Mostly it’s self taught since in college the only time we even mentioned Gregorian chant was in the study of the history of western music.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon_Ed said:
No, I mean tones. Here’s the reason for being precise. If we use the term “note” we have a problem in that there are only 7 of them (A,B,C,D,E,F,G). They then repeat up an octave.

In Gregorian chant the score is written on four lines because it is written for voice. The C Clef mark indicates where the C lies (an F clef marks where F is). However, that is not an absolute. The chanter can “adjust” what “C” means for him or her. It may or may not be “C” (or “F”).

Let’s get a little more technical (if I lose you, let me know). The actual names of the modes are 1) Protus Authentus (First Authentic), 2) Protus Plagis (First Plagal), 3) Deuterus Authentus (Second Authentic), 4) Deuterus Plagis (Second Plagal), 5) Tritus Authetis (Third Authentic), 6) Tritus Plagis (Third Plagal), 7) Tetrardus Authentis (Fourth Authentic) and 8) Tetrardus Palgis (Fourth Plagal). Each of these modes consists of 8 tones (two tetrachords).

Let’s look at the Protus. Protus Authentus has this range: D, E, F, G, A, B, C and D. That’s it. Protus Plagis has this range: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A.

Each of the other modes has a corresponding range.

Where your confusion seems to be coming in is that you appear to be trying to fit this into your knowledge of later music theory. It doesn’t. You can’t fit the two together. Gregorian chant has its own rules and they predate modern notation.

Deacon Ed
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So thus, one can impose the mode over any modern scale they want. C or F only would apply to the mode, not the scale, because that would actually depend on the scale the mode was being played in, am I correct?
 
If I understand your question, then the answer is yes 🙂 If not, I’m sorry for butting in :o

You can transpose a mode into whatever “key” you want (don’t forget, “key” implies tonality, which hadn’t developed yet), it’s just like a “moveable Do” solfege system. So if you took the Protus Authentus (from D to D on the white keys) and started it on, say… F#… you would just keep the ‘formula’ of the intervals in the D-D scale (whole step, half step, w, w, w, h, w) just apply it to whatever note you start on. So it would be F#, G#, A,B,C#, D#, E, F#). It’s easy for a singer, you just sing the melody at a comfortable pitch. Not so easy for instrumentalists 😦

So if the singer’s range is such that F#-F# is great, but C-C may be too low or too high, it’s perfectly fine to start wherever is comfortable (as long as you tell the organist ahead of time, if there is one accompanying 🙂 )

Hope this helps,

Jonathan
Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
So thus, one can impose the mode over any modern scale they want. C or F only would apply to the mode, not the scale, because that would actually depend on the scale the mode was being played in, am I correct?
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Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
So thus, one can impose the mode over any modern scale they want. C or F only would apply to the mode, not the scale, because that would actually depend on the scale the mode was being played in, am I correct?
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Provided one maintains the intervals, yes. That’s the whole purpose of a movable scale! Note that, in fact, solfege was based upon this concept – a movable Do.

Deacon Ed
 
So, so far:
Mode I… Dorian
Mode III… Phrygian
Mode V… . Lydian
Mode VII…Myxolydian

Mode II…plagal Dorian
Mode IV…plagal Phrygian
Mode VI…plagal Lydian
Mode VIII…plagal Myxolydian

So, Phrygian would sound Arabic. Would plagal Phrygian sound the same? Except for the final?
 
Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
So, so far:
Mode I… Dorian
Mode III… Phrygian
Mode V… . Lydian
Mode VII…Myxolydian

Mode II…plagal Dorian
Mode IV…plagal Phrygian
Mode VI…plagal Lydian
Mode VIII…plagal Myxolydian

So, Phrygian would sound Arabic. Would plagal Phrygian sound the same? Except for the final?
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The answer to your question is no, the Phrygian does not sound Arabic. At least, not as in the octoechos (eight tones) used in the Arabic churches. Arabic music uses micro-intervals that are not found in the normal scales. Since the only difference between the authentic and the plagal is the start and end points, they would sound the same.

And, if you are going to be speaking of Gregorian chant more than just in passing, you might want to use the official names of the modes and not the Greek names – but the latter four modes are, in Greek equivalent, all prefixed with hypo- rather than “plagal” as you’ve noted above. That’s really mixing systems and names.

Deacon Ed
 
Sorry, to me the Phrygian, or rather what I think is Phrygian, sounds Arabic.

By start and end points you mean the notes? Dorian and Hypodorian both would begin on D? (on the piano, playing white keys from D to D?)
 
Can I re-ask the last question on this thread? Or will I never understand it? I think I am using modern music theory to figure out Gregorian theory and it is not working.
 
Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
Sorry, to me the Phrygian, or rather what I think is Phrygian, sounds Arabic.

By start and end points you mean the notes? Dorian and Hypodorian both would begin on D? (on the piano, playing white keys from D to D?)
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Trust me, Phrygian isn’t even close to Arabic (I serve an Arabic community and have spent a long time learning to chant the Arabic chants).

And, you are correct, using modern terms to try to address Gregorian chant will not work.

And, no, Dorian and Hypodorian do not both start on D. The plagals (and Hypodorian would be a plagal) start a fifth lower than the authentic. Also remember that these are moveable scales! The actual note on which the scale starts is up to the singer.

Deacon Ed
 
The reason I called it Arabic was- at least the mode I was used to calling Phrygian- was minor with the flatted sixth(?). It did sound Arabic-sounding to me.

Anyhow, the poorness of my ears aside, is there any other way you could describe to me the modes? The part I need help with is the authentic/plagal variation.
 
Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
The reason I called it Arabic was- at least the mode I was used to calling Phrygian- was minor with the flatted sixth(?). It did sound Arabic-sounding to me.

Anyhow, the poorness of my ears aside, is there any other way you could describe to me the modes? The part I need help with is the authentic/plagal variation.
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I’m not sure how to explain this more clearly. For any given authentic mode, the plagal starts a fifth lower. I’m reluctant to say that there is a particular starting note since that isn’t the case – we have a movable DO so that saying we start on C or D would be incorrect.

If we *arbitrarily *say that Protus Authentus starts on D then Protus Plagis would start on A (a fifth below D). Working from that, Deuterus Authentus (Second Authentic) would start on E and Deuterus Plagis (Second Plagal) would start on B.

Does that help any?

Deacon Ed
 
Wouldn’t you mean the plagal starts on the fifth, then? Correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, it helps.
I am aware there is a movable “do.” What makes it a mode are the intervals the mode has between notes. It just so happens that D to D, white keys, on a piano makes a Dorian mode.

I must go somewhere, I’ll finish this post later.
 
Continued

I understand each of the modes is meant to sound different, to give a different feeling. I just don’t understand the purpose of plagal modes if they would not sound different to our ears.
 
Ok, this is different than the way I learned it.

I learned it:

I: Ionian
II: Dorian
III: Phrygian
IV: Lydian
V: Myxolydian
VI: Aeolian
VII: Locrean
 
Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
I understand each of the modes is meant to sound different, to give a different feeling. I just don’t understand the purpose of plagal modes if they would not sound different to our ears.
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Ah, that’s an excellent question. The primary difference between the plagal and the authentic (since the scale is the same) is the note called the final and the tenor. These are in different places. This affects, primarily, the recitation tone and the cadence.

Deacon Ed
 
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