The growth of Islam

[Ssmats]

I’m curious about your thoughts about the growth of Islam across the western world. I’ve watched some videos from politicalislam.com/

I can’t help but feel concerned although it hasn’t affect me a whole lot personally.

On a brighter note I’ve read there are many Muslim refugees converting to Christianity in Europe and the UK.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Due mostly to astronomical birthrates and immigration.

What i find ironic is the liberal’s strange tolerance of Islam and utter disdain for Christianity.

We want to preserve life of the unborn and remain in traditional bathrooms. But that’s just asking too much for them.

If this country ever fell under Sharia law, these uninformed folks would be begging for the return of Christianity.

 

[powerofk]

Due mostly to astronomical birthrates and immigration.

What i find ironic is the liberal’s strange tolerance of Islam and utter disdain for Christianity.

We want to preserve life of the unborn and remain in traditional bathrooms. But that’s just asking too much for them.

If this country ever fell under Sharia law, these uninformed folks would be begging for the return of Christianity.

No kidding. Actually, I think it has to do with Muslims being considered by the Left to be a “persecuted minority” in the West. In fact, the Left seems to have a hierarchy of sorts when it comes to minorities, which runs like so (on this list, the further down, the higher on the rank of minorities, and the more “empowerment” that you need).

White, Judeo-Christian, “cis” heterosexual male
White, Judeo-Christian, “cis” heterosexual female
Black/Latino, Judeo-Christian, “cis” heterosexual of either sex
Judeo-Christian “cis” homosexual of any race and of either sex
Judeo-Christian “trans” of any race and of either sex
Muslim
Animals

Notice that conspicuously absent from this list are (1) people from religions (including atheists) outside the Abrahamic religions, as the Left considers them more “open” to their ideology and (2) people with true social justice needs, such as the unborn, the abused, the elderly, the terminally ill, the mentally ill, the immigrant, the disabled, and the homeless (because, ultimately, they consider many of these people as non-persons, though they will sometimes co-opt movements to “help” them to further their own cause, which ultimately is to overthrow Western civilization at its core; and since a violent overthrow from the outside ultimately failed, the Left is now working on eroding Western civilization from the inside).

 

[JSAD]

It can be scary. It seems like almost the entire world is rising up opposed to Judeo-Christian values(in Philippines, the one Catholic country in Asia, the new President is very anti-catholic).

However, in times of Persecution, the Church grows and we do receive more graces when we pray.

Muslim or not, they are children of God (from the same father Abraham).

Let’s pray for more conversions to Catholicism and openness to the truth of Christ . Christ brings peace and not fear.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

No kidding. Actually, I think it has to do with Muslims being considered by the Left to be a “persecuted minority” in the West. In fact, the Left seems to have a hierarchy of sorts when it comes to minorities, which runs like so (on this list, the further down, the higher on the rank of minorities, and the more “empowerment” that you need).

White, Judeo-Christian, “cis” heterosexual male
White, Judeo-Christian, “cis” heterosexual female
Black/Latino, Judeo-Christian, “cis” heterosexual of either sex
Judeo-Christian “cis” homosexual of any race and of either sex
Judeo-Christian “trans” of any race and of either sex
Muslim
Animals

Notice that conspicuously absent from this list are (1) people from religions (including atheists) outside the Abrahamic religions, as the Left considers them more “open” to their ideology and (2) people with true social justice needs, such as the unborn, the abused, the elderly, the terminally ill, the mentally ill, the immigrant, the disabled, and the homeless (because, ultimately, they consider many of these people as non-persons, though they will sometimes co-opt movements to “help” them to further their own cause, which ultimately is to overthrow Western civilization at its core; and since a violent overthrow from the outside ultimately failed, the Left is now working on eroding Western civilization from the inside).

They actually held a vigil for the Ape in that zoo case the other day. :ehh:

 

[GEddie]

I’d tie this to the Western love for all things foreign and exotic. The farther from standard-issue Western life someone or some being is, the higher they score on the exotic scale, and so the lower down on your list (therefore more important – I like that.)

Today, the Western love of exotica (which was seen as early as the Acts of the Apostles, in the numerous Roman converts to Judaism) has morphed into a passion for “diversity.”

But it has to be a diversity that is nonthreatening. There was no deep love for wild beasts along the NA frontier. Disabilities frighten us, while alternate sexualities do not, so the second is embraced, while the first is hidden.

ICXC NIKA

 

[commenter]

Due mostly to astronomical birthrates and immigration.

What i find ironic is the liberal’s strange tolerance of Islam and utter disdain for Christianity.

We want to preserve life of the unborn and remain in traditional bathrooms. But that’s just asking too much for them.

If this country ever fell under Sharia law, these uninformed folks would be begging for the return of Christianity.

Perhaps we overestimate the difficulty of Muslims converting to Christianity or to secularism. Historically Christians tended to encounter Muslims mostly in Muslim-dominant cultures. In that context, it is very hard to convert. But it is only a for couple generations that many people in those cultures have gotten wealthy and sought Western educations. It is only in recent years those cultures have been saturated by Western secular media.

The few Muslims I have known, in the US, have reported difficulty with their children not wanting to adopt the clothing and other habits that seem out of place with their peers. I predict many of the Muslims moving to Western nations will leave more or less cease active practice of Islam within a generation, though they may retain loyalty for longer.

The power of Western secular media culture to assimilate must not be underestimated. I think some may become Christian, not to any relativistic communions but to communions having fixed doctrines and positions on moral issues.

 

[Hatikvah]

Well, we must remember that more Christians are being persecuted for their faith right now more than any time in more recent centuries (arguably; there are always exceptions).

But, as Tertullian said in Apologeticus: “the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.”

 

[powerofk]

It can be scary. It seems like almost the entire world is rising up opposed to Judeo-Christian values(in Philippines, the one Catholic country in Asia, the new President is very anti-catholic).

However, in times of Persecution, the Church grows and we do receive more graces when we pray.

Muslim or not, they are children of God (from the same father Abraham).

Let’s pray for more conversions to Catholicism and openness to the truth of Christ . Christ brings peace and not fear.

We always need to pray for the conversion of enemies of the Church.

Regardless, and it came to me after my post, is that there’s kind of an uneasy alliance between the secular Left and Islamism (though neither side will ever admit as such), just as there was an uneasy alliance between the US and UK on the one side and the USSR on the other during WWII. As long as the US/UK and the USSR had a common enemy (Nazi Germany), they focused their attacks on the common enemy. After the enemy had been pretty much completely destroyed by their combined efforts, though, the two sides of the US/UK and USSR went into a decades-long Cold War.

Currently, both the Secular Left and Islamism consider the Christian West in general and the Catholic Church in particular as needing to be destroyed. Of course, they have different tactics to try to bring this about and different final goals in mind, but as long as they both have the Church as a common enemy, they have decided to deal with each other with kid gloves and put their main focus on bringing down the Church and the entire culture that the Church helped build with it.

***By the way, note that I used “Islamism”. “Islamism” is the strain of Islam that seeks full world domination by any means necessary, including the sword and forced conversions. This does not include Muslims (especially in the West) who believe that their primary focus should be their individual internal struggles against their own rebellion against God.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Perhaps we overestimate the difficulty of Muslims converting to Christianity or to secularism. Historically Christians tended to encounter Muslims mostly in Muslim-dominant cultures. In that context, it is very hard to convert. But it is only a for couple generations that many people in those cultures have gotten wealthy and sought Western educations. It is only in recent years those cultures have been saturated by Western secular media.

The few Muslims I have known, in the US, have reported difficulty with their children not wanting to adopt the clothing and other habits that seem out of place with their peers. I predict many of the Muslims moving to Western nations will leave more or less cease active practice of Islam within a generation, though they may retain loyalty for longer.

The power of Western secular media culture to assimilate must not be underestimated. I think some may become Christian, not to any relativistic communions but to communions having fixed doctrines and positions on moral issues.

Yes, the Muslims here practice a Americanized, like watered down version of Islam, imo.

I’m sure it is uncomfortable for them, but I’m sure it’s even more uncomfortable for our dwindling population of Christians who are being pushed out of the Holy Land and/or Middle east. From what I am told they are not allowed to make much noise when worshiping and they cant even remodel their existing churches. That’s intolerance to the fullest.

Interesting thought on them converting to Christianity. They have been indoctrinated to believe that this is “Shirk” which is the only unforgivable sin in Islam, to equate “partners” with Allah. So I think those are very difficult sells for evangelization efforts.

Pax

 

[Ssmats]

This is the article I read before about the converts to Christianity:

theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/05/european-churches-growing-flock-muslim-refugees-converting-christianity

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

**Please observe the forum rules for inter-religious dialogue. **

 

[TheAtheist]

What i find ironic is the liberal’s strange tolerance of Islam and utter disdain for Christianity.

I’m not quite sure many of you would realize this… but there’s a kind of strange civil war going on in the Left on both sides of the Atlantic.

If i had broadly characterize this split - its essentially the Far Left Social Justice Warrior Branch vs. the Libertarian/Classical Liberal/Freedom of Speech Branch of which many New Atheists tend to fall under.

youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60

if i might summarize, this is the New Atheist Icon Sam Harris and a Bill Maher attempting to offer a criticism against Islam(ism) while being castigated by Hollywood actor Ben Affleck as being “Gross and racist.”

So - the New Atheists basically spent a better part of a decade leading the charge against well…you guys in whatever particular format of Christianity that you observe. They really didn’t have much to say about specific religions outside of yours besides a blanket disdain for religion in general.

The only person who ever spoke publicly from the Left against Islam was the late author, critic, and gadfly Christopher Hitchens who was subsequently “booted” from the Political Left and branded as what the Americans would call a “neo-conservative.”

Toward the end of the decade however, it seems the sun had risen in their minds and they had discovered a major breakthrough realization: Not all Religions are the Same.

Yeah…i know… why it took them a decade to figure this out is beyond me.

In any event, armed with this realization they were confronted with what many of them saw as a discrepancy in their views. To quote activist Maajid Nawaz, the Political Left in Europe seemed to be abandoning what he calls the “Minority within Minorities.”

Essentially, he was talking about those coming from Islamic societies who might hold opinions and views that would ostensibly be what the Left is for - Feminism, Homosexuality, religious but pro-secular government, etc…and yet no one on the Left would ever challenge Islam’s treatment of such matters.

So - the New Atheists attempted to do as such…and frankly got their heads bitten off by the Social Justice Warrior wing of Far Left.

This has lead to some rather interesting developments.

You all remember Richard Dawkins for instance right? Well, a decade back he used to accuse you all of committing child abuse against your children for teaching religion to them… now…

"I have mixed feelings about the decline of Christianity, in so far as Christianity might be a bulwark against something worse."

“There are no Christians, as far as I know, blowing up buildings,” Dawkins said in an interview with the Times of London in April 2010 on the issue of Islamist terrorism. “I am not aware of any Christian suicide bombers. I am not aware of any major Christian denomination that believes the penalty for apostasy is death,” he added.

He also came out in the defense of the Church of England’s right to screen the Lord’s Prayer at UK Cinemas…

theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/22/richard-dawkins-says-uk-cinemas-should-screen-the-lords-prayer

Sam harris, another name i’m sure many of you are familiar made a similar statement.

There are very few of us who lie awake at night worrying about the Amish. This is not an accident. While I have no doubt that the Amish are mistreating their children, by not educating them adequately, they are not likely to hijack aircraft and fly them into buildings. But consider how we, as atheists, tend to talk about Islam. Christians often complain that atheists, and the secular world generally, balance every criticism of Muslim extremism with a mention of Christian extremism. The usual approach is to say that they have their jihadists, and we have people who kill abortion doctors. Our Christian neighbors, even the craziest of them, are right to be outraged by this pretense of even-handedness, because the truth is that Islam is quite a bit scarier and more culpable for needless human misery, than Christianity has been for a very, very long time. And the world must wake up to this fact. Muslims themselves must wake up to this fact. And they can.

For comments such as these, Mr. Harris has been savaged by those who ostensibly share his values on venues such as Salon.com.

Furthermore, he’s been labelled a racist for his commentary on Islam.

So the Far Left/Social Justice Warriors tend to look at people like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Maajid Nawaz as being Racist, Bigoted, Sexist, etc. IE: All the negative nouns that fall within their lexicon. From what I understand - they view such people as giving cover/legitimating the viewpoints of the Center to Far Right.

The Libertarian/Classical Liberal/\group tends to look at the Far Left = Noam . as being completely and totally out of touch with reality. They hold a greater critique beyond Islam that attacks the culture of Political Correctness which they accuse what they have dubbed the Regressive Left of supporting.

In fact I often see them stating that the “Regressive Left” = The New Religious Right.

One of the often cited examples I hear these people make about the “Regressive’s Insanity” is a reference to a group called Queers for Palestine.

quitpalestine.org/

The Contradiction they cannot stand here is the fact that when you look at the actual treatment of homosexuals in Palestine…well… many of them end of fleeing to Israel in order to avoid persecution by a religious majority.

 

[Rohzek]

TheAtheist has pretty much highlighted a very lively debate going on in the Left at this moment. I’ve been watching this rather closely myself as it is intellectually stimulating. As for Noam Chomsky being part of this touchy feely SJW left, well I have to disagree. I don’t want to immediately get into details unless prodded, but my personal opinion on the matter is that such a view is a gross mischaracterization of the man perpetuated mostly by Sam Harris, who having read his email exchange with Chomsky seems to misunderstand the man.

 

[RPRPsych]

I’m curious about your thoughts about the growth of Islam across the western world. I’ve watched some videos from politicalislam.com/

I can’t help but feel concerned although it hasn’t affect me a whole lot personally.

On a brighter note I’ve read there are many Muslim refugees converting to Christianity in Europe and the UK.

Four factors, to my mind, are producing this phenomenon:

1. A punishment for lukewarm / apostate Christianity (think Assyrians, Babylonians, etc… vis-a-vis the Chosen People). This is, of course, just a theological speculation on my part.
2. Demographics. Hindus, Christians, and “nones / seculars” are all very good at reciting the “small family” mantra (speaking from my country’s perspective). Muslims reject it. More births = more growth, it’s simple arithmetic. Factor in early marriages, improved healthcare even in the developing world (so less infant deaths), and even polygamy in some cases, and old Malthus would certainly break out into a cold sweat.
3. Power. People are attracted to “the winning side”.
4. Conviction. Say what you want about Islam “not being the True Faith”, but they generally stand by a limited set of ideas and convictions. In a world where most other religions are embracing a certain degree of wishy-washyness, this can be attractive.

 

[TheAtheist]

TheAtheist has pretty much highlighted a very lively debate going on in the Left at this moment. I’ve been watching this rather closely myself as it is intellectually stimulating. As for Noam Chomsky being part of this touchy feely SJW left, well I have to disagree. I don’t want to immediately get into details unless prodded, but my personal opinion on the matter is that such a view is a gross mischaracterization of the man perpetuated mostly by Sam Harris, who having read his email exchange with Chomsky seems to misunderstand the man.

Well i was merely trying to relate what both sides thought of each other.

If i had to put my finger on this and draw up an analysis (and tie it back to what the OP’s original question was).

You know how you guys quibble over what is and isn’t the True Church?

That’s pretty much what is happening in the Secular world. Who is the “True Liberal.”

I think the difference of opinion stems from where the “Free Speech” Left vs. the SJW Left are coming from in terms of philosophy.

The Free Speech/Libertarian/Classical Liberal see themselves as the inheritors of the Enlightenment and specifically an Anglo-American understanding of Liberalism a la John Stuart Mill.

The SJW brand of the Left is essentially a form of Marxist thought, probably derived heavily from Herbert Marcuse’s work. Notice i said Marxist, not Communist - although the end of the Communist project in Europe did spur on this kind of anti-Western, anti-Colonialism, anti-Privilege thinking.

In one sense, they are quite… Utopian… which is problematic.

They heavily leverage identity politics - which means that certain disadvantaged classes must be protected at all cost.

In the last 5 or 6 years a strange thing occurred

1.) The Jews got thrown out of the “Protected Classes” and got identified as a Oppressor. I’m assuming this is probably due to the actions of the Israeli state.

2.) The Muslims/Islam took its place.

And i’ll be frank and honest with you - i have no clue how this occurred.

So, at least in the European context it seems, to attempt to deny refugees coming from the Middle East is seen as a form of latent racism.

And if anybody attempts to broach sensitive subjects, such as economic or societal dislocations occurring from accepting so many refugees into a country (a very common sense analysis by the way) - they are often shouted down as being bigoted and racist.

So the Classical Liberal Left can’t help but think the SJW left made some weird sort of… devil’s bargain if you will, with the Islamism.

Because you now have for instance, 3rd Wave Feminist Groups defending the Islamist groups… who if they were to take power in the country they are in…would probably ban the 3rd Wave Feminist group.

We live in…very strange times.

 

[Ssmats]

… very strange times indeed. From what I see on the internet, the regressive left have taken over University campuses, and I don’t see how that is going to change any time soon.

 

[GEddie]

In the last 5 or 6 years a strange thing occurred

1.) The Jews got thrown out of the “Protected Classes” and got identified as a Oppressor. I’m assuming this is probably due to the actions of the Israeli state.

2.) The Muslims/Islam took its place.

And i’ll be frank and honest with you - i have no clue how this occurred.

I’ll hazard a guess, just my MX$2.00.

The pattern is far older than five or six years. And 1) and 2) are separate phenomena, though linked by time and events.

1. The formation of the modern Israeli state and its impressive string of military victories over far stronger adversaries caused Judaism to be moved out of the victim column. Time point: Circa 1948.
2. Beginning in 1967, and maximizing post 2001, the grief and opprobrium received by Muslims in specific situations was skillfully spun into an entry in the victimization column.
3. The Western diversity/exotic reflex was used to advantage. In the 1900s, Islam was the height of exotic in the Western nations. Judaism is not, as it has been part of the Western orbit since New Testament times.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[RPRPsych]

I’ll hazard a guess, just my MX$2.00.

The pattern is far older than five or six years. And 1) and 2) are separate phenomena, though linked by time and events.

1. The formation of the modern Israeli state and its impressive string of military victories over far stronger adversaries caused Judaism to be moved out of the victim column. Time point: Circa 1948.

1. Beginning in 1967, and maximizing post 2001, the grief and opprobrium received by Muslims in specific situations was skillfully spun into an entry in the victimization column.

1. The Western diversity/exotic reflex was used to advantage. In the 1900s, Islam was the height of exotic in the Western nations. Judaism is not, as it has been part of the Western orbit since New Testament times.

ICXC NIKA.

Very well observed! (Also, adding to (1); the endorsement of the Israeli “cause” by Evangelicals and Republicans - traditional enemies of the “progressives” - must have hastened this process.)

 

[TheAtheist]

Very well observed! (Also, adding to (1); the endorsement of the Israeli “cause” by Evangelicals and Republicans - traditional enemies of the “progressives” - must have hastened this process.)

I’ll have to take your and GEddie’s word for it folks because remember - i’m the foreigner here.

But getting back to the OPs question - allow me to present a few examples to you.



A Chinese colleague informed me about the existence of the Hui. These are ethnically Chinese Muslims. I believe they are Sunnis and follow a traditional school of Jurisprudence… although i don’t remember which one.

From what i’ve been told, the Hui Chinese Muslims have contributed heavily to Chinese culture, are often deemed the model and ideal religious minority, whose women have often been more highly educated than the rest of the regular Chinese majority…

And to my knowledge - I’ve never heard of a terrorist incident involving the Hui.

Although there is a 2nd Minority group, the Uyghurs of Xinjiang (who aren’t ethnically Chinese and kind of what their land back) who DO in fact commit acts of terrorism against the Chinese state.

For more information between the 2 groups:

thediplomat.com/2014/08/a-tale-of-two-chinese-muslim-minorities/

But getting back to my point: the Hui Muslims don’t strap on a bomber jacket and blow people to kingdom come.

http://tours42plus.com/Assets/Uploa...scat-21ba012a-f67f-42fc-b714-97cf3e0c5584.jpg"]http://tours42plus.com/Assets/Uploa...scat-21ba012a-f67f-42fc-b714-97cf3e0c5584.jpg

These are Ibadi Muslims - completely different from the Sunnis and Shi’ites you might be familiar with. The majority of them are found in Oman. Some facts for you to digest.

1.) Oman was the first Arab nation to recognize the United States of America back in 1841.

2.) In 1994, Yitzak Rabin, former Prime Minister of Israeli was invited to Oman for a friendly high level diplomatic discussion with the ruling Sultan of the time.

Let that sink in - An Arab Leader invites the Prime Minister of Israeli over for some tea and light conversation. When was the last time that ever happened?

3.) The Lack of Terrorism coming out of Oman

it is no surprise that there is no record of Omanis having fought in Afghanistan or being held in Guantanamo Bay. In fact, the only two available references linking al-Qaeda and Oman are: first, without details, the 9/11 commission report simply mentions that Osama bin Laden’s Islamic Army Council (the initial ruling body of the International Islamic Front prior to the 1998 reorganization) included Omani Islamists; second, Kuwaiti-Canadian al-Qaeda member Mohammed Mansour Jabarah—who traveled to Oman, possibly on his way to Saudi Arabia—was arrested in the Sultanate in March 2002. Several months later, Muscat confirmed that it had arrested members of an al-Qaeda cell, but gave no details. While Muscat denied reports that they were extradited, Washington said "they were transferred to the United States

---

So why did I bring all of that up?

Well… notice something.

We have 2 communities of Muslims, who don’t practice some sort of “watered-down” version of Islam, but who by the standards of the modern world - act “normal.”

They aren’t trying to overthrow the State, they respect the laws of the land, and they aren’t trying to build a Caliphate.

So a lot of people get into these weird arguments about what is “True Islam.” This is especially true of the Left at this point.

My point is thus: You and I, Atheist and Christian, don’t really have much standing to describe what is True or Not True Islam.

Because well… we don’t believe it to be true!

The thing we are looking for is Is there a version of Islam which can co-exist peacefully with the rest of us?

Because that version won’t try to cut off our heads if we disagree with it.

That i would say, is what we are looking for at the end of the day.

The Problem arises when Islam is treated more than just a religion.

When its treated as a religiously inspired Political Program…well…then we have problems…

So here’s a little known fact - In Japan, its illegal to set up a mosque without government approval.

Now…why would they do that? Well - i suppose its attempt to block Wahabi-backed Mosques from forming in Japan.

Oh and btw…



Faitfhul, non-watered down Japanese Muslim… who isn’t trying to overthrow the Japanese government.

Do you see where i’m going with this?

its possible to co-exist with our Muslim neighbors (point of fact - i actually do have a lot of Muslim friends…who are deathly afraid of the Jyhadists).

But it all comes down to how they view Islam.

And are Ultimate Problem is that these versions of Islam i’ve been talking about aren’t the ones getting the most converts…