The gun thing - a question from a European

[TimeEntrance]

What is hard for a European to understand is how culturally divided the US is with respect to guns. People in places like New York City call for gun control because of massacres and then people in rural areas feel that they’re being called whackos by the ‘liberal elite’. Which is not completely hard to understand. And then there’s the Second Amendment.

And many of those white people in small towns in mainly rural areas are salt of the earth. They are good people. I met some of them in Tomah, Wisconsin. I like those working poor and working middle-class people far more than I do the poor, middle, and rich in the cities like Milwaukee, Chicago, New York and so on.

What the New Yorkers can’t understand because they are immersed in their environment is that just about all of them are “bad people.” From the bankers to the cops. There is a very thin line between them and the hoodlum on the street.

What is funny is that the same people (e.g. many Republicans) who say they need guns to protect themselves against tyranny usually support things like the Patriot Act, that give the federal government more and more surveillance rights. Not all of them do – like Ron Paul supporters – but many do.

Excellent point. That never occurred to me.

I don’t get the protection from tyranny argument that much myself. Let’s say some officials from the Federal Government show up and want to arrest your spouse for no particular reason. You have a lot of guns. At what point would you start shooting them?

I don’t buy the idea either. This is not the 1700’s.

U.S. Marines went building to building, room to room, battling armed opponents in the City of Fulajha in Iraq in a stunning, audacious plan of urban warfare in my opinion. It will go down in military history I think, as a textbook example beside Stalingrad. Had that been Israel and the IDF they would have simply bombed the entire city to rubble.

My point being here is that one or two households with guns are no major deterrent for the U.S. Government. Technology has changed and they - in conjunction with state and local governments - own a monopoly on well trained, organized militias.

However, in Milwaukee both the mayor and police chief are calling for city and national increased gun control laws. The police chief is a big critic of Wisconsin’s new concealed carry while at the same time having replaced the shotguns in squad cars with rifles that I think maybe fall under the category of assault rifles or battle rifles (I don’t know much about that stuff or really know what differentiates one from the other). I just find that all interesting. The police chief while a big critic of the NRA seems to share in their paranoid reasoning, but only as it applies to cops, just like many citizens like myself use the same paranoid reasoning as both law enforcement and the NRA use, as it applies to ourselves as civilians.

Basically the reasoning for all goes like this: Potentially someone has a gun, therefor me and mine need a gun.

One notices police departments do not arm their cops with .22 caliber pistols. It’s due to the same reasons a civilian arms himself with a .45 caliber pistol.

 

[tabycat]

Tim McVeigh killed 168 people, including 19 small children, and seriously injured more than 680 others with a truck filled full of fertilizer he used as an explosive on April 19, 1995 in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.

Terrorists the world over have killed thousands, including children, using cars or other vehicles they have planted with explosives made from household items.

And 9/11 when over 2000 Americans were killed ‘by plane’. The hijackers did NOT use guns to hijack 4 planes, they used box cutters.

 

[ProVobis]

Uhmm I believe you are grossly mistaken, the NRA does not sell neither guns nor ammunition.

The name NRA itself sells guns. No receipt slips necessary. Enough said.

 

[Cristiano]

The name NRA itself sells guns. No receipt slips necessary. Enough said.

You are not being intellectually honest with this kind of statements.

 

[ProVobis]

I know it is difficult for our European friends to understand the culture of America. If you read our Constitution, that might help. Better yet, read the Federalist Papers which will give you a better idea of how our Constitution was formed and why we think differently about guns and other things.

You are entirely correct. I’m an immigrant from the U.K. and the American obsession with guns was quite noticeable for me. Yes, I got acquainted with the Constitution and I accepted it, though it wasn’t easy. We had no choice but to accept it, given our financial situation at the time.

But one thing I need to point out about the Constitution. The framers did us a favor and allowed it to be amended as times require. Unlike Latin, English words change their meanings over time so one can make a case that the 1776 wording alone has become obsolete. Just saying.

 

[ProVobis]

You are not being intellectually honest with this kind of statements.

What are we arguing about, the meaning of the word “sell”? Or is the NRA some kind of false god we’re all supposed to worship and don’t speak evil about? What’s wrong with saying the NRA is the group most influencing the distribution of weapons in the U.S.? Why does THAT bother posters?

 

[ProVobis]

And 9/11 when over 2000 Americans were killed ‘by plane’. The hijackers did NOT use guns to hijack 4 planes, they used box cutters.

And what do you find so humorous about that?

 

[ProVobis]

You can say the same thing about cars. A psychologically unstable individual or child or law-abiding citizen who snaps can do deadly things with cars too.

Except that cars aren’t part of the 2nd Amendment and laws can easily be enacted to control them without the risk of being rendered unconsitutional.

Laws banning guns will not take away guns from the streets.

Moot point because such laws would be unconstitutional.

There are such things as black markets you know?

Such did not prevent government from confiscating all gold from its citizens back in the 30’s.

 

[jeannetherese]

I put the picture of the weapons his mother had in the home because the picture, quite frankly, shocks me. I’ve never seen weapons of this sort in my life and I hope I never will.

I don’t want to completely derail this thread, but I hope you will take a moment to share where you live. The possibility of living in the SE Balkans without ever seeing firearms puzzles me.
May God bless you and your country with peace. Amen.

 

[TEPO]

Do you also think drugs should be legally sold, because they’re available in illegal venues? Are you fully in favor of legal abortion because women would just go to back-alley abortionists? If so, you’re consistent and I respect that.

That’s an unfair comparison, Litcrit. Abortion is morally wrong in every case while gun sales cannot be considered as such. With drugs, that depends on the type I guess.

 

[meltzerboy]

This is correct according to the most accurate research on the matter, and indicative of how myths are perpetuated by their innumerable retelling.

 

[Litcrit]

Tim McVeigh killed 168 people, including 19 small children, and seriously injured more than 680 others with a truck filled full of fertilizer he used as an explosive on April 19, 1995 in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.

Terrorists the world over have killed thousands, including children, using cars or other vehicles they have planted with explosives made from household items.

It takes a lot of planning, time, and effort to do something like this. It’s not something a child or a random psycho or a drunk or temporarily insane person can do. With guns, which were designed to kill, all it takes is pulling a trigger.

Making explosives FROM household items is difficult to prevent, but do we have to have guns, instantly ready to kill and easy to use, AS household items?

 

[Cristiano]

What are we arguing about, the meaning of the word “sell”? Or is the NRA some kind of false god we’re all supposed to worship and don’t speak evil about? What’s wrong with saying the NRA is the group most influencing the distribution of weapons in the U.S.? Why does THAT bother posters?

Emotional rants do not substitute facts. What does it mean that NRA is the group most influencing the distribution of weapons in the US?
If I were to follow your logic I would say that the democratic party is the group the most influences the gun sales in the USA. The number of firearms buyers go up as soon as the democratic party goes in action independently from the NRA. Just look at the post election sales increase, that was independent from the NRA, it was a direct consequence of the actions of the democratic party. I think that you give way too much credit to the NRA.

 

[Litcrit]

I don’t want to completely derail this thread, but I hope you will take a moment to share where you live. The possibility of living in the SE Balkans without ever seeing firearms puzzles me.
May God bless you and your country with peace. Amen.

I don’t like sharing the exact location, but I AM from SE Balkans. I’ve honestly never seen a real gun up close, as no one I know owns one or is interested in owning one. I may have seen one on a guard in front of a big bank at the moment some money was being brought in, I think. But I have seen Tomahawk missiles in the sky - maybe if you’re interested in the area, you’ll know where I’m from exactly.

Thank you, I hope and pray for permanent peace in the whole region.

That’s an unfair comparison, Litcrit. Abortion is morally wrong in every case while gun sales cannot be considered as such. With drugs, that depends on the type I guess.

I wasn’t making a comparison based on morality at all - after all, none of us would like to see lying or adultery illegal, I hope, though we all agree they’re morally wrong.

I was only comparing these issues to show that we institute laws because we want to see them enforced. We don’t usually just give up on a law we think is just and useful for the sole reason that we think someone might attempt and succeed in breaking it.

 

[LightBound]

It takes a lot of planning, time, and effort to do something like this. It’s not something a child or a random psycho or a drunk or temporarily insane person can do. With guns, which were designed to kill, all it takes is pulling a trigger.

Making explosives FROM household items is difficult to prevent, but do we have to have guns, instantly ready to kill and easy to use, AS household items?

Well, nothing we’re going to say on here is going to convince someone if they are opposed to guns in the first place. I think you’ve been given a lot of answers on why Americans do not want the government interfering in our constitutional rights. It is hard to understand our feelings about those rights when you’re coming from a socialist or post-communist country that’s never known the kind of freedom we cherish- the kind our forefathers left oppressive countries for and/or gave their own lives in order to have for themselves or for their descendants .

 

[LilyM]

Well, nothing we’re going to say on here is going to convince someone if they are opposed to guns in the first place. I think you’ve been given a lot of answers on why Americans do not want the government interfering in our constitutional rights. It is hard to understand our feelings about those rights when you’re coming from a socialist or post-communist country that’s never known the kind of freedom we cherish- the kind our forefathers left oppressive countries for and/or gave their own lives in order to have for themselves or for their descendants .

And it’s equally difficult for someone who is not in and has never lived in an oppressive communist/socialist state to see how much your society is starting to sound like one - not that their citizenries carry lots of weapons but there is the exact same near-pathological fear of government and neighbour.

Utterly parhological in your case, in fact, because unlike them - and unlike the founding fathers of the US - you freely elected the government you so terribly mistrust and fear right now.

Something is seriously wrong with such a picture.

 

[LightBound]

And it’s equally difficult for someone who is not in and has never lived in an oppressive communist/socialist state to see how much your society is starting to sound like one - not that their citizenries carry lots of weapons but there is the exact same near-pathological fear of government and neighbour.

Utterly parhological in your case, in fact, because unlike them - and unlike the founding fathers of the US - you freely elected the government you so terribly mistrust and fear right now.

Something is seriously wrong with such a picture.

I would say folks that are posting on here in defense of our right to own guns probably didn’t vote for the candidates that seek to take this right away.

 

[jeannetherese]

I don’t like sharing the exact location, but I AM from SE Balkans. I’ve honestly never seen a real gun up close, as no one I know owns one or is interested in owning one.

Thanks. When I think of the S.E. Balkans I think of WWI, WWII, and the Cold War and all of the weaponry utilized in struggles to gain and maintain power. Historical exposure to weaponry would thus, in my expectation, be considered seen as fairly normal. Your clarification was helpful.
Here in the States, seeing guns daily is normal for me as the police officers openly carry. Exposure to this tends to normalize it as an expectation. When I don’t see guns, I assume guns, Whenever I see a marked car or uniform.
While I less frequently see civilians with guns, (I’m lumping police and military here) the idea that people can own and do own guns is something I have taken for granted as part of our culture, history, and political system. This also seems, due to experience in this country, normalized behavior.
I imagine we both might experience culture shock adjusting to the differing expectations we might experience elsewhere.

 

[LilyM]

I would say folks that are posting on here in defense of our right to own guns probably didn’t vote for the candidates that seek to take this right away.

That would be where the pathological fear of neighbour comes in - since their neighbours clearly did vote for 'em.

Or is it just old fashioned disdain - ‘the majority are far more stupid than I, and therefore cannot be trusted to make sensible decisions, so I have the right to not only object, not only disobey, but brandish weapons against anyone whose policies I disagree with’.

 

[LightBound]

That would be where the pathological fear of neighbour comes in - since their neighbours clearly did vote for 'em.

Or is it just old fashioned disdain - ‘the majority are far more stupid than I, and therefore cannot be trusted to make sensible decisions, so I have the right to not only object, not only disobey, but brandish weapons against anyone whose policies I disagree with’.

I don’t recall reading any posts here about people deciding to brandish weapons against those who voted for a different candidate…nor do I recall reading about any pathological fear of neighbors…only fear of not being able to protect themselves against an armed criminal who wants to hurt them.