The gun thing - a question from a European

[Cristiano]

It’s ironic that people are scapegoating the NRA and acting as if the NRA gives guns away while ignoring the fact that the Obama admin recently gave away tons of automatic firearms to known drug dealers in Mexico which resulted in the deaths of innocent Mexican civilians as well as the death of a US border patrol agent.

Just look at the super tight gun laws in Mexico and that ex-marine that has has just been released from jail because he tried to act in a lawful manner. Gun laws did not stop the corruption of the armed forces and police, the ones that brought bigger weapons into play. Do we remember when after WW2 black soldiers supported by military weapons and the 2nd amendment managed to preserve the rule of law against a currupt police force.

 

[Cristiano]

Considering that I am in the lecture mode I want to make another point here. I think that it is naive to claim that gun control will limit crime and I also think that it very naive to claim that gun availability will reduce crime. Looking at what is happening now I think that the culture of idiocity is showing up its ugly rear one more time here in the US. In my opinion all the proposals of new gun laws are as stupid as the NRA suggesting one armed policem in every school, the knee jerk reaction to legislate things just to feel in control when it is impossible to be in control is a major sign of cultural immaturity. Maybe my thinking is biased by my experience in using statistics to try to avoid highly improbably events that are impossible to eliminate; however, in my professional life I learned that you cannot patch things up in a sloppy manner like politicians are trying to do it every time something happens. We cannot avoid these extreme cases by introducing patches because they will bite us in the butt at a later time, we must change not the immediate causes but the primary causes if we want to eliminate extreme events. The problem is that such approaches are expensive and they take a longer time than the regular tenure of an elected offiial and so they are not politically convenient for someone that wants to make a life as a professional politician.

 

[triumphguy]

We have crime control… and that doesn’t work either

To change behaviour you can’t just ban the behaviour. Fundamental changes need to be made at the societal and at the individual level.

 

[Cristiano]

We have crime control… and that doesn’t work either

To change behaviour you can’t just ban the behaviour. Fundamental changes need to be made at the societal and at the individual level.

Maybe it is time to ban politicians.

 

[livingwordunity]

Maybe it is time to ban politicians.

We should ban evil.

 

[Cristiano]

We should ban evil.

That has already been banned in a certain location, I am trying to get ready to move to that location, even if I am not good at that.

 

[Sarcelle]

That would be where the pathological fear of neighbour comes in - since their neighbours clearly did vote for 'em.

Or is it just old fashioned disdain - ‘the majority are far more stupid than I, and therefore cannot be trusted to make sensible decisions, so I have the right to not only object, not only disobey, but brandish weapons against anyone whose policies I disagree with’.

The disdain goes both ways you know. Do you remember Obama talking about people clinging to their guns and religions?

 

[Sarcelle]

Do you also think drugs should be legally sold, because they’re available in illegal venues? Are you fully in favor of legal abortion because women would just go to back-alley abortionists? If so, you’re consistent and I respect that.

Guns can be bought for all types of reasons, self-defense, target practice. Abortion has only one goal in mind, that is the death of the unborn child. Believe it or not, not all people who purchase guns plan to go on a killing spree. Buying guns and procuring abortions are not the same. As I said before, not all purchased guns will lead to murder, abortion will.

As for drugs, I am for the decriminalization of marijuana.

 

[ProVobis]

Emotional rants do not substitute facts.

You’re right. I shouldn’t have taken the bait.

Meet St. Ignore.

Proceed.

 

[ProVobis]

…the Obama admin recently gave away tons of automatic firearms to known drug dealers in Mexico which resulted in the deaths of innocent Mexican civilians as well as the death of a US border patrol agent.

So how does this show that guns are used for protection only?

 

[ProVobis]

To change behaviour you can’t just ban the behaviour.

Precisely.

 

[mary_bobo]

We should ban evil.

That’s what he said, is it not?

 

[TEPO]

We should ban evil.

Who is we…? If you’re talking about sin free people then my vote won’t count.

 

[TimeEntrance]

So you’re going to completely ignore the objective evidence that proves that more guns = less crime. You’re even going to ignore the unarguable evidence that innocent people all over the world are killed by rioters every year. rolleyes

Maybe because it’s not objective evidence.

And one can construct statistics to prove whatever hypothesis they want. Those wanting to prove the genetic or biological heritability of homosexuality do this with statistical mathematics.

There are many guns on the streets of many American cities with high homicide rates like Detroit and Baltimore. Many of those that are homicide victims actually have carried or do carry firearms concealed (mainly illegally) and have criminal records. Those they are violent criminals could give a flip that their targets are armed with guns.

Why Tomah, Wisconsin or Madison, Wisconsin may have lower homicide rates than Racine, Wisconsin and Milwaukee, Wisconsin are not simply attributable to Tomah and Madison having per capita more firearms ownership.

Edited for addendum.

News story and video: wisn.com/news/south-east-wisconsin/milwaukee/Police-Wauwatosa-officer-shot-multiple-times/-/10148890/17886364/-/ybfvy7/-/index.html

Police: Wauwatosa officer shot multiple times
30-year-old Jennifer Sebena killed early Monday morning
UPDATED 2:43 PM CST Dec 24, 2012

WAUWATOSA, Wis. —A Wauwatosa police officer was found dead early Monday morning, and officials said the officer was shot multiple times.

Lt. Gerald Witkowski said that dispatchers early Monday morning attempted to contact an on-duty officer via radio between 3 a.m. and 5 a.m., and the officer did not respond.

 

[tobbias88]

Seems most on this Forum do not accept:Matthew 26:52.

Strange - can one pick & choose? I thought it was all sacred text?

 

[TimeEntrance]

I would say that any though-full discussion about armed citizens in Europe should take into account the millions of people who were first disarmed and then sent to die in concentration camps.

It is well know by tyrants that the first thing to do is to disarm the citizens. If you can convince the citizens to disarm themselves willingly for the greater good, so much the better.

I think it was on an online philosophy forum I participate on, a European stated that Americans view the gun as a symbol of power. You would agree?

I think this outsider to the U.S. might have a valid observation about the typical U.S. psyche and U.S. culture in general.

Isn’t there a sense of “emasculation” (for lack of a better expression that is more gender neutral) for many of Americans with the notion of being legally disarmed?

Philosophically, if the U.S. Constitution was amended to ban most firearms or limit the number one could have to just a single pistol of no greater caliber than a .38, the question might be raised how law abiding gun owning citizens are if they disregard that law.

Isn’t one reason or one motive we Americans want firearms legal is because there is a thin line between who we are and the “hoodlum” in America? Think about how both relate to legitimate authority. How is the U.S. Government a tyrant unless you are somewhere deep down inside yourself a hoodlum as well. Certainly, this website, and the Catholic Church, and various religious orders within the Catholic Church, operate more “tyrannically” imposing more restrictions than the U.S. Government does with its legalized pornography, homosexual marriage, and numerous other things falling under “freedom.”

For the record, New York City police notoriously operate with a certain Nazi-like regulating over the Puerto Rican and black males in that city, with stop-and-frisk policies. I could post a youtube video caught on camera of this, where the cops stopping, cursing, and becoming physically aggressive with a young Puerto Rican male, responded out of anger that they were stopping him because he was a “[expletive] mutt.” But the curse words in the video (although showing real life) is not allowed on this website - whereas it is on youtube by the U.S. Government. So, I think the U.S. Federal Government is less oppressive than what some would suggest. In fact, the Federal Government often has had to step in to help guarantee freedoms when state or city governments were operating in one or more ways unfairly and oppressively.

 

[ProVobis]

I think it was on an online philosophy forum I participate on, a European stated that Americans view the gun as a symbol of power. You would agree?

I think this outsider to the U.S. might have a valid observation about the typical U.S. psyche and U.S. culture in general.

Isn’t there a sense of “emasculation” (for lack of a better expression that is more gender neutral) for many of Americans with the notion of being legally disarmed?

Philosophically, if the U.S. Constitution was amended to ban most firearms or limit the number one could have to just a single pistol of no greater caliber than a .38, the question might be raised how law abiding gun owning citizens are if they disregard that law.

Isn’t one reason or one motive we Americans want firearms legal is because there is a thin line between who we are and the “hoodlum” in America? Think about how both relate to legitimate authority. How is the U.S. Government a tyrant unless you are somewhere deep down inside yourself a hoodlum as well. Certainly, this website, and the Catholic Church, and various religious orders within the Catholic Church, operate more “tyrannically” imposing more restrictions than the U.S. Government does with its legalized pornography, homosexual marriage, and numerous other things falling under “freedom.”

For the record, New York City police notoriously operate with a certain Nazi-like regulating over the Puerto Rican and black males in that city, with stop-and-frisk policies. I could post a youtube video caught on camera of this, where the cops stopping, cursing, and becoming physically aggressive with a young Puerto Rican male, responded out of anger that they were stopping him because he was a “[expletive] mutt.” But the curse words in the video (although showing real life) is not allowed on this website - whereas it is on youtube by the U.S. Government. So, I think the U.S. Federal Government is less oppressive than what some would suggest. In fact, the Federal Government often has had to step in to help guarantee freedoms when state or city governments were operating in one or more ways unfairly and oppressively.

Valid points to think about.

 

[liturgyluver]

Note the time scale. When the law was enacte, law-abiding citizens turned in their guns and crime rose because the criminals were the only ones armed… Six years later the rates begin to drop because of other factors, not because of the ban on handguns, and it looks like rates are stabilizing at at the level they were prior to the ban. You call that success?

The claim of gun control advocates is that restrictions on guns will reduce crime; if that were true then the trend immediately after enacting such laws would be the opposite of what is actually seen. And in fact the experience in the US is that every time anti-gun laws are enacted, violent crime increases, and every time citizens carry more guns, violent crime is reduced.

More guns = less crime. It works every time it’s tried.

Access to guns in Switzerland is much greater than in the US. There (or at least was, the last time I checked was about 15 years ago)
.

Law abiding citizens in the UK do not carry guns and never have. Even before additional restrictions were put in place. I call 39 gun homicides a year a great success and crime is now at its lowest level for 30 years. It is disingenious of the US gun lobby to use UK stats over a limited period to support its aims. Bottom line is in Europe gun homicides low, in USA gun homicides, (and general homicides) high -simple as that.

Your facts on Switzerland are out of date. I spoke to a Swiss guy tonight and he said “Don’t you dare compare us to those crazy Americans.”

Merry Christmas.

 

[liturgyluver]

Valid points to think about.

Absoutely the “Century of Self” exposed interesting and disturbing analysis and made similar conclusions about the American Psyche.

Merry Christmas, Provobis. I hope you have a wonderful day.

 

[ProVobis]

Absoutely the “Century of Self” exposed interesting and disturbing analysis and made similar conclusions about the American Psyche.

Merry Christmas, Provobis. I hope you have a wonderful day.

Merry Christmas. On my way to the Midnight Mass. Hold the fort.