The Hail Mary of a Protestant

[Della]

One of the reasons I ask these questions is this. I was raised as a Catholic on a steady diet of such stories of how great, kind, and seeking of us God was. I believed in such a God. I prayed mightily. I was not thus rewarded with any such signs and assurances. It did affect my faith, not in God, but in Catholicism.

Many people have prayed thus, and not received a sign. What do you say to them?

cheddar

And many a Protestant has prayed and prayed and not gotten what he wanted, either. So, what does that say about Protestantism? The same as about Catholicism–nothing.

As you cited, God is not an “on demand” waiter. He is Lord and Sovereign. He decides what is best for us and what isn’t. He knows when we are praying in faith and, conversely, when we are only praying out of self interest, etc.

It has often been said, and is worth repeating, that God answers prayers in 3 ways: “Yes.” “No.” And “not yet.” A true person of faith doesn’t demand that God do as he wishes, but asks that all he wishes be done according to God’s will.

 

[cheddarsox]

And many a Protestant has prayed and prayed and not gotten what he wanted, either. So, what does that say about Protestantism? The same as about Catholicism–nothing.

As you cited, God is not an “on demand” waiter. He is Lord and Sovereign. He decides what is best for us and what isn’t. He knows when we are praying in faith and, conversely, when we are only praying out of self interest, etc.

It has often been said, and is worth repeating, that God answers prayers in 3 ways: “Yes.” “No.” And “not yet.” A true person of faith doesn’t demand that God do as he wishes, but asks that all he wishes be done according to God’s will.

I’m not a Protestant but you’re right, it says the same thing. God does not perform “on demand”. I think it is unfortunate for people of any faith to misrepresent God in such a way. It does nothing to further true devotion or a real relationship with the Divine.

I feel using these types of stories or tales of miracles in order to convert makes God seem rather like a lottery…take your chance, maybe you’ll get lucky…God should be worshipped because the Divine is sovereign and worthy of worship, not because we hope to be showered with blessings and special treatment.

 

[Eden]

This thread is about the inspiring story of a Protestant’s Hail Mary, a topic worthy of remaining focused on. Perhaps we can start a new thread about childhood experiences and traumas and why we don’t always get what we pray for.

 

[JBReyes463]

After reading the story :crying: it brought tears to my eyes, as he profess the Catholic Faith is The One True Religion.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I said nothing anti-Catholic in my post. I asked what of the times that Mary or God do not comply? What does that mean? What ifsomeone says…Mary and God, if you come through, I will study the Catholic faith…and then Mary and God don’t come through? Does that imply that God does not wish that person to study the Catholic faith?

Or is merely asking a question to be considered an “anti-Catholic” response?

This story is posted in the Non Catholic religions forum. So why chide us when we join in the thread?

One of the reasons I ask these questions is this. I was raised as a Catholic on a steady diet of such stories of how great, kind, and seeking of us God was. I believed in such a God. I prayed mightily. I was not thus rewarded with any such signs and assurances. It did affect my faith, not in God, but in Catholicism.

Many people have prayed thus, and not received a sign. What do you say to them?

cheddar

Maybe God’s answer for you was I am not making a deal. Come to me in faith and acceptance then we can talk. My brother and myself were baptized In the Catholic Church as babies our parents divorced when we were 3 and 4 years old I continued on in the church my brother did not He would go to Mass with me about once a month over the last 2 years and I have been praying For God to work on His heart to bring Him home to the Church. I would talk to him and tell him I did not care If he what church (family has Lutherans to baptist in it) he joined and attended but he needed a church home. Long story short he has come home to the Catholic Church He was just released from the hospital Tuesday and as soon as possible is going to start taking the steps for make his first confession and communion, and confirmation.

 

[JonNC]

Many people have prayed thus, and not received a sign. What do you say to them?

cheddar

You say, "prayers of this type should always end with ‘nevertheless, not my will, but yours be done.’ "

It is a beautiful story, even if you’re not a Catholic.

 

[brandymmiller]

I said nothing anti-Catholic in my post. I asked what of the times that Mary or God do not comply? What does that mean? What ifsomeone says…Mary and God, if you come through, I will study the Catholic faith…and then Mary and God don’t come through? Does that imply that God does not wish that person to study the Catholic faith?

I think your question is valid and certainly doesn’t make you anti-Catholic. Prayer must be understood in the context in which it is grounded: it is a conversation, not a mathematical formula. When we converse with people, we often receive responses we weren’t anticipating. Why, then, should we be surprised when God does that, too? I would say that if you have prayed for something specific, and the something specific didn’t come, look for what did come. It could be that the answer you received was a “no.” That’s a perfectly valid answer, by the way. It could be that God looked into the requestor’s heart and saw insincerity there, and knew that granting the favor wouldn’t bring the person any closer to Him but might in fact have the opposite effect and so denied the request, prefering to choose a time later in the person’s life when their need, and their sincerity, was more genuine. It could also be that God answered the request in a manner that the requestor was not anticipating, but which completely met the real need.

An example of this would be a man wandering in the desert in search of water. He asks God for water, but finds none. He begs God for rain, but the sky remains clear. As he walks along he finds a rusty tin can. In his frustration, he kicks the tin can away and continues along. Later in the day, tired and thirsty and feeling abandoned he sits down and begins to yell at God. When at last he is too tired to yell any more, God speaks.

You asked for water, but you had nothing to put it in. Had I have given you what you asked for, you would only have gotten a sip before the water seeped away into the sand. I sent you a tin can, which you kicked away from you. The tin can was not only good for holding water, but can be used to gather food and to cook food, and to signal for help. You asked for only water, but I gave you something which would help you with everything you needed. Go get your tin can, and remember that my ways are not your ways.

 

[Pinkyyy]

"Mary is not like any other children of Adam, stained with sin. No! The Angel called her FULL OF GRACE AND BLESSED AMONGST WOMEN. Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ and consequently Mother of God.

“My dear sister, you naturally wish to have your child cured. Very well, then, do what I ask you to do. Follow me, let us pray one ‘Hail Mary’ and promise God that, if your son recovers his health, you would seriously study the Catholic doctrine, and should you come to the conclusion that Catholicism is the only true religion, you would embrace it no matter what the sacrifices may be.”

Wow, some of the Catholics here just LOVE to bash on protestants to badly (or that’s how I feel when you say the CC is the ONLY “right” church - that is in your OPINION). Really, at least we are not trying to tell Catholics they are going to Hell because of such and such.

But anyway, here is my reaction to this.

number 1 - I don’t know of any protestant I have met that just says Mary is a normal woman - they do not pray to her (some of them) and other things like Catholics do, but never do they say she wasn’t important. If you assume that, you are WRONG.

and

Number 2 - I didn’t know God could be bargained with. “God IF you do this and this,*** THEN ***I’ll do this and that”.

 

[GoneFishin]

Wow, some of the Catholics here just LOVE to bash on protestants to badly (or that’s how I feel when you say the CC is the ONLY “right” church - that is in your OPINION). Really, at least we are not trying to tell Catholics they are going to Hell because of such and such.

But anyway, here is my reaction to this.

number 1 - I don’t know of any protestant I have met that just says Mary is a normal woman - they do not pray to her (some of them) and other things like Catholics do, but never do they say she wasn’t important. If you assume that, you are WRONG.

and

Number 2 - I didn’t know God could be bargained with. “God IF you do this and this,*** THEN ***I’ll do this and that”.

You didnt read the other post, they already talked about testing God and the bargain. In no way did I see Anti-Protestantism in this story. The fact is that most Protestants do not give reverence to Mary like us Catholics do. Just like most Protestants assume much more of what they think is the RCC. Protestants do the same with Salvation and such just like we do, so dont try and pull the victim card here, it was a very nice story and sounds like most Protestant conversion stories out there, finding the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ.

 

[Pinkyyy]

You didnt read the other post, they already talked about testing God and the bargain. In no way did I see Anti-Protestantism in this story. The fact is that most Protestants do not give reverence to Mary like us Catholics do. Just like most Protestants assume much more of what they think is the RCC. Protestants do the same with Salvation and such just like we do, so dont try and pull the victim card here, it was a very nice story and sounds like most Protestant conversion stories out there, finding the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ.

Gone, I am in no way playing the victim card. Here’s a little about my background. You assumed wrong.

I do not assume what the RCC believes - I know. My husband is Catholic, I have been through RCIA (although have not joined the church) and I have been attending Mass and have a good relationship with the parish priests going on almost 8 years.

The anti-protestantism comes from the story itself - Oh thank goodness that person saved themselves from Hell and became a Catholic - go tell your friends and families. That’s what the priest said himself at the end of the story.

In fact, I am pretty sure if I posted a reverse story, you would not like it. Let’s do that. Let’s take the OP example:

There was once a devote Catholic family who had a child. This child had questions about his faith, but his parents told him do not question the church ever - we are the true religion founded by Jesus himself. Yet, still the boy did not feel at home in his Catholic parish and was eager to discover what other denominations believed. During his college years, he thus attended many churches and when he joined the (insert protestant religion here) church he felt more alive and happy than he ever has and finally had a close and loving relationship with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

However, his family was very upset and kept telling him how he was damned for leaving the true Church in God’s eyes. This man did not think everything was so black and white. When his sister’s child fell ill and the doctors said there was no hope, he told his sister if she would let go of the rules and would freely give her heart and worship God - which is the only important thing - and if a miracle happened through God, then she would think about learning about his Protestant religion. His sister after years of opening herself up to the Bible and God with an open heart decided to join the protestant church her brother joined and remains happy to this day. She is so happy she truly knows about God’ mercy and that the only important thing is her belief in him - not this rule or that rule. She finally knew she had accepted God’ true word.

If I said that,** then there would be a zillion catholics on here saying bad things about it and crying how they left the true church and are then facing eternal damnation **- am I wrong? You may say so, but I don’t think so.

Many protestants revere Mary in a very special way - all protestants can’t be lumped into one category - the category of claiming Mary was just another lowly human being on the planet. That is a misrepresentation or generalization by you and many Catholics about Protestants.

 

[Pinkyyy]

Oh, and yes I did see that the issue has been addressed regarding bargaining with God, but I just do not agree with the response. It doesn’t matter what the bargain was with you see. It was said that the bargaining issue does not make sense because it wasn’t because of her child being saved that she became Catholic. This is faulty thinking. Because what she agreed to do was THINK about her brother’s religion which in turn lead her to the CC. It was the agreeing to think about it that was the bargain, not joining the CC.

 

[GoneFishin]

Gone, I am in no way playing the victim card. Here’s a little about my background. You assumed wrong.

I do not assume what the RCC believes - I know. My husband is Catholic, I have been through RCIA (although have not joined the church) and I have been attending Mass and have a good relationship with the parish priests going on almost 8 years.

The anti-protestantism comes from the story itself - Oh thank goodness that person saved themselves from Hell and became a Catholic - go tell your friends and families. That’s what the priest said himself at the end of the story.

In fact, I am pretty sure if I posted a reverse story, you would not like it. Let’s do that. Let’s take the OP example:

There was once a devote Catholic family who had a child. This child had questions about his faith, but his parents told him do not question the church ever - we are the true religion founded by Jesus himself. Yet, still the boy did not feel at home in his Catholic parish and was eager to discover what other denominations believed. During his college years, he thus attended many churches and when he joined the (insert protestant religion here) church he felt more alive and happy than he ever has and finally had a close and loving relationship with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

However, his family was very upset and kept telling him how he was damned for leaving the true Church in God’s eyes. This man did not think everything was so black and white. When his sister’s child fell ill and the doctors said there was no hope, he told his sister if she would let go of the rules and would freely give her heart and worship God - which is the only important thing - and if a miracle happened through God, then she would think about learning about his Protestant religion. His sister after years of opening herself up to the Bible and God with an open heart decided to join the protestant church her brother joined and remains happy to this day. She is so happy she truly knows about God’ mercy and that the only important thing is her belief in him - not this rule or that rule. She finally knew she had accepted God’ true word.

If I said that,** then there would be a zillion catholics on here saying bad things about it and crying how they left the true church and are then facing eternal damnation **- am I wrong? You may say so, but I don’t think so.

Many protestants revere Mary in a very special way - all protestants can’t be lumped into one category - the category of claiming Mary was just another lowly human being on the planet. That is a misrepresentation or generalization by you and many Catholics about Protestants.

I see nothing wrong with this story, Its just a story! Now the fact that it is on a Catholic Forum, well? you know you are going to get feedback + or - ? i am just saying that the OP is not Anti-Protestant, and just like Protestants lump Catholics together we do the same, I know there are some who pay their respects to Mary and some dont, but again we are on a Catholic Forum and it seems like everybody talks here in a general sense, not personal sometimes. I am sorry if I came off the wrong way, I did not mean to. If I may ask what the reason you have not joined? I dont want to get into a major Theological reason, just why ?

 

[GoneFishin]

Oh, and yes I did see that the issue has been addressed regarding bargaining with God, but I just do not agree with the response. It doesn’t matter what the bargain was with you see. It was said that the bargaining issue does not make sense because it wasn’t because of her child being saved that she became Catholic. This is faulty thinking. Because what she agreed to do was THINK about her brother’s religion which in turn lead her to the CC. It was the agreeing to think about it that was the bargain, not joining the CC.

I dont think the OP meant for it to turn this way, I think they just wanted to get a good story out, not matter what the theological stance of it was. I think that one should never bargain with God during prayer, nor should one ask for things (material things), but ask God to help others in need.

 

[Pinkyyy]

I see nothing wrong with this story, Its just a story! Now the fact that it is on a Catholic Forum, well? you know you are going to get feedback + or - ? i am just saying that the OP is not Anti-Protestant, and just like Protestants lump Catholics together we do the same, I know there are some who pay their respects to Mary and some dont, but again we are on a Catholic Forum and it seems like everybody talks here in a general sense, not personal sometimes. I am sorry if I came off the wrong way, I did not mean to. If I may ask what the reason you have not joined? I dont want to get into a major Theological reason, just why ?

Sure, Gone - no problem. I joined because like I said I’ve been through RCIA and I don’t know what to do next. I am trying to figure out what I think and what I want to do.

I think coming on here lets me see both sides and lets me connect with my old religion and the one I am interested in - and let’s me debate myself on what I really believe - and have the occassional rant like I just did

I have a some issues with the church, but then again I believe a lot of it too. I joke that I am a a Catherine - a Catholic and a Lutheran becuase I am a mix. I don’t want to join knowing I don’t agree on everything because I don’t think the RCC accepts this, but on the other hand, I want to particiapate in things such as the sacrament and confession - which I can’t do (well, actually I have done them anyway, but the priests/monks know I am not a RCC member and they know the situation - but usually I will refrain - only if I feel the need to go to confession then I will- and they know I am not a member of the CC though. But my RCIA lady told me that if you want the sacrament and to do these things our priest would not deny me because I do wish to be a part of the church (I just have issues right now )

I don’t want to force myself, but I don’t want to have something happen and not be in the church - if I am making sense. I don’t know anymore, lol.

Thanks for listening to my rant. Please pray for me if you can.

 

[GoneFishin]

My prayers are with you , thanks for sharing

 

[brandymmiller]

Sure, Gone - no problem. I joined because like I said I’ve been through RCIA and I don’t know what to do next. I am trying to figure out what I think and what I want to do.

I think coming on here lets me see both sides and lets me connect with my old religion and the one I am interested in - and let’s me debate myself on what I really believe - and have the occassional rant like I just did

I have a some issues with the church, but then again I believe a lot of it too. I joke that I am a a Catherine - a Catholic and a Lutheran becuase I am a mix. I don’t want to join knowing I don’t agree on everything because I don’t think the RCC accepts this, but on the other hand, I want to particiapate in things such as the sacrament and confession - which I can’t do (well, actually I have done them anyway, but the priests/monks know I am not a RCC member and they know the situation - but usually I will refrain - only if I feel the need to go to confession then I will- and they know I am not a member of the CC though. But my RCIA lady told me that if you want the sacrament and to do these things our priest would not deny me because I do wish to be a part of the church (I just have issues right now )

I don’t want to force myself, but I don’t want to have something happen and not be in the church - if I am making sense. I don’t know anymore, lol.

Thanks for listening to my rant. Please pray for me if you can.

Pink -

I’m sorry if sometimes we get overzealous and seem to put down our Protestant brothers and sisters. I know it must hurt you, and hurt the others who bravely join us here. All should find a welcoming home in the Church. Her teachings are rich and true, and bring life and hope when followed and understood properly. Misunderstood and they can seem so judgemental and harsh. Goodness knows how many years I spent as a Catholic teenager feeling guilty constantly because everything seemed to be a sin somehow.

I know now that God doesn’t want my guilt, He wants my heart to change. He wants my love. Now I know that I don’t have to waste my time walking around feeling guilty, if I recognize that what I am doing is wrong I simply need resolve to change and seek forgiveness. Then I go to confession, to see Jesus in His earthly form, and to receive wise counsel that will help me to understand the real reason why I went off track in the first place and to make the commitment in front of someone else (very important here, because otherwise I might rationalize that behavior in my own mind) that I will do better next time. Now I walk around free and confident of God’s love, assured that even if I do sometimes make mistakes all is not lost, God will help me to call to mind my mistake and help me to understand where I messed up and to fix it.

 

[RevDrNorth]

I don’t know about the story that was posted. I suspect that even if it is the Priest’s story, it has a little exaggeration due to some of the language he allegedly used as a child which are a bit beyond someone young.

However, I have a devotion to our Blessed Mother and both say the Rosary and wear a Brown Scapular. Certain articles I read on this site helped to banish my own ignorance of the role of Mary in the Catholic Church. We have to get past misguided excesses by some Catholics to what the church really teaches and understands about Mary. When we do that it is reasonable and biblical.

In my own life Marian devotion has nothing but bring me closer to Christ and knowing that his Blessed Mother is praying for me gives me a great deal of comfort and has borne fruit. Mary has a role, it is scriptural and not without precedent. Even Christ using Mary at places such as Fatima in terms of a prophetic role is reasonable and profound.

 

[ufamtobie]

What about those who make similar “bargains” with God…such as, God, if you give me a job, or heal this infirmity…I will study the Catholic faith…and they are not healed or do not get the job? What of the times that Mary or God do not “play back”?

I find these types of stories to be tear jerkers, heart tuggers, but when people put the same idea into practice, and God or Mary does not “fall into line” faith is seriously tried. I don’t think it it wise to encourage such “testing” of the Divine.

God is not a miraculous vending machine. Most of us know this by firsthand experience.

Hey there chedarsox,

So you know this from first hand experience?

I am sorry your prayers was not answered perhaps the reason being you have not said the Hail Mary Prayer. Say it, I am sure that your prayer would be answered if it be the Lords Will.

Don’t Knock it till you have prayed it.

Ufamtobie

 

[gilbs72]

This is a very nice and uplifting story. However, I have searched the net and can’t seem to find any reference on who the real “Fr. Tuckwell” is. Despite the story supposedly being a testimonial and publicly delivered through a sermon, it’s strange that all available copies of the story make no reference to the owner.

So far, I found a ‘Father Christopher Tucker’ of Westminster Cathedral who is a former Anglican Canon. As far as I know, Anglicans believe similarly in Mary as Catholics.

Why do I ask? The story is a good one whoever wrote it, and it uplifts Catholic tradition. However, if it should be proven false, then it may become a one-step-forward-two-steps-back affair which might just hurt the Church in the long run.