The Harry Truman dilemma

[EBSSTF4]

And as far as double effect goes

The New Catholic Encyclopedia

Four conditions for the application of the principle of double effect:

1. The act itself must be morally good or at least indifferent. 2. The agent may not positively will the bad effect but may permit it. If he could attain the good effect without the bad effect he should do so. The bad effect is sometimes said to be indirectly voluntary.
2. The good effect must flow from the action at least as immediately (in the order of causality, though not necessarily in the order of time) as the bad effect. In other words the good effect must be produced directly by the action, not by the bad effect. Otherwise the agent would be using a bad means to a good end, which is never allowed.
   4 The good effect must be sufficiently desirable to compensate for the allowing of the bad effect” (p. 1021).

 

[wabrams]

Are the Japanese a single entity?

For the most part, yes. When every man, woman, and child that can carry anything that can be used as a weapon with the inclination to use it to the death.

I do not condemn “The Japanese”

I do condemn a Weak Emperor, and a “evil” aggressive military leadership, with a mix of good and bad solders, many of whom who were doing what they thought was right. I cannot blame an entire race for the actions of their leaders.

Even though everyone of them would have been more than happy to kill US soldiers if they set foot on the Japanese mainland.

 

[EBSSTF4]

For the most part, yes. When every man, woman, and child that can carry anything that can be used as a weapon with the inclination to use it to the death.

Even though everyone of them would have been more than happy to kill US soldiers if they set foot on the Japanese mainland.

That is silly.

Also not Catholic, you describe them like they were animals, unable to tell right from wrong. Did the Japanese people not have the ability to think for them selves?

No, still just silly

I knew a few Japanese families that came over in the early 50’s. They discusted the tactics used to try to “brain-wash” them into fighting. It was not going to happen.

No just silly.

 

[Lance]

On the night of March 9-10, 1945, a wave of 300 American bombers struck Tokyo, killing 100,000 people. Dropping nearly 1,700 tons of bombs, the war planes ravaged much of the capital city, completely burning out 16 square miles and destroying a quarter of a million structures. A million residents were left homeless.

On May 23, eleven weeks later, came the greatest air raid of the Pacific War, when 520 giant B-29 “Superfortress” bombers unleashed 4,500 tons of incendiary bombs on the heart of the already battered Japanese capital. Generating gale-force winds, the exploding incendiaries obliterated Tokyo’s commercial center and railway yards, and consumed the Ginza entertainment district. Two days later, on May 25, a second strike of 502 “Superfortress” planes roared low over Tokyo, raining down some 4,000 tons of explosives. Together these two B-29 raids destroyed 56 square miles of the Japanese capital.

Yet Japan did not surrender. If anyone is to blame for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki it is the Japanese government who refused to admit defeat.

 

[EBSSTF4]

On the night of March 9-10, 1945, a wave of 300 American bombers struck Tokyo, killing 100,000 people. Dropping nearly 1,700 tons of bombs, the war planes ravaged much of the capital city, completely burning out 16 square miles and destroying a quarter of a million structures. A million residents were left homeless.

On May 23, eleven weeks later, came the greatest air raid of the Pacific War, when 520 giant B-29 “Superfortress” bombers unleashed 4,500 tons of incendiary bombs on the heart of the already battered Japanese capital. Generating gale-force winds, the exploding incendiaries obliterated Tokyo’s commercial center and railway yards, and consumed the Ginza entertainment district. Two days later, on May 25, a second strike of 502 “Superfortress” planes roared low over Tokyo, raining down some 4,000 tons of explosives. Together these two B-29 raids destroyed 56 square miles of the Japanese capital.

Yet Japan did not surrender. If anyone is to blame for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki it is the Japanese government who refused to admit defeat.

So you are saying it was the level of destruction the bomb was capable of, not the fatalities that ended the war.

So we could of bombed a non populated area with the same result.

 

[wabrams]

That is silly.

Also not Catholic, you describe them like they were animals, unable to tell right from wrong. Did the Japanese people not have the ability to think for them selves?

No, still just silly

I knew a few Japanese families that came over in the early 50’s. They discusted the tactics used to try to “brain-wash” them into fighting. It was not going to happen.

No just silly.

Wow, you know a couple of families; I am just overwhelmed.

It’s not silly if you read your history and learn about the culture at the time. Give me a break here, there was only 3 options availble:

1. Bomb them until they gave up
2. Starve them to death over the winter with a bloackade, or
3. Kill millions (not including US troops), up close and personal, with a land invasion.

Now, which one of the 3 has the least amount of collateral damge and the least amount of civilian deaths?

 

[Lance]

So you are saying it was the level of destruction the bomb was capable of, not the fatalities that ended the war.

So we could of bombed a non populated area with the same result.

Not at all. I am saying that as long as the Japanese government thought we would have to eventually invade they were never going to surrender unless they got favorable conditions. With the atomic bombs they realized we could kill all of them without invading and there was no way they could stop us. We could kill all of them in their homes, at work, in bomb shelters, in the cities and the country, anywhere and everywhere. They had no option. They even waited a few days after the 2nd bomb. Had they known we did not have another one they may not have surrendered then.

 

[Lance]

No, still just silly

Did the Japanese soldiers in Nanking think they were doing the right thing? How about the ones who forced the people to walk in the Batan Death March? No, I am not of the opinion that the average Japanese military man knew right from wrong or was capable of thinking for himself, which leads me to believe the average Japanese citizen did not either.

I’ll wager that the citizens of Nanking did not think the notion that the Japanese did not know right from wrong was silly.

 

[EBSSTF4]

Did the Japanese soldiers in Nanking think they were doing the right thing? How about the ones who forced the people to walk in the Batan Death March? No, I am not of the opinion that the average Japanese military man knew right from wrong or was capable of thinking for himself, which leads me to believe the average Japanese citizen did not either.

I’ll wager that the citizens of Nanking did not think the notion that the Japanese did not know right from wrong was silly.

I think I should post this question on Catholic forum and try to get come Catholic feedback on it.

 

[Lance]

I think I should post this question on Catholic forum and try to get come Catholic feedback on it.

I must be losing my mind! I thought we were on a Catholic forum and your profile says you are Catholic so why don’t you give me some feedback?

 

[EBSSTF4]

I must be losing my mind! I thought we were on a Catholic forum and your profile says you are Catholic so why don’t you give me some feedback?

Sarcasm!!!

I have used Catholic sources, ** no one ** supporting the bombings has.

 

[Lance]

Sarcasm!!!

I have used Catholic sources, ** no one ** supporting the bombings has.

I was talking about my question to you about Japanese ability to tell right from wrong in WWII. Why do you refuse to answer?

 

[EBSSTF4]

I was talking about my question to you about Japanese ability to tell right from wrong in WWII. Why do you refuse to answer?

I was not referring to any one post, but the thread in general. This has been all emotion and “toeing the line”. This is a catholic forum and I am digging for something more than I have gotten, witch is either “the ends justify the mean” or an attempt at “Double Effect”(witch does not meat the criteria to be legitimate)

Nothing personal to any posters, I was hopping for more Catholic answers. The last time I debated this was in a “secular” Theology class many years ago, and got almost exactly the same answers.

I have to admit I was more up on the historical details at the time, now I am more concerned with the theological/moral aspect, as it pertains to the Catholic church.

 

[wabrams]

Sarcasm!!!

I have used Catholic sources, **no one **supporting the bombings has.

That’s because the Catholic teaching doesn’t contradict what happened in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

 

[Blackbog]

Nothing personal to any posters, I was hopping for more Catholic answers. The last time I debated this was in a “secular” Theology class many years ago, and got almost exactly the same answers.

I share your sentiments.

 

[Lance]

I was not referring to any one post, but the thread in general. This has been all emotion and “toeing the line”. This is a catholic forum and I am digging for something more than I have gotten, witch is either “the ends justify the mean” or an attempt at “Double Effect”(witch does not meat the criteria to be legitimate)

Nothing personal to any posters, I was hopping for more Catholic answers. The last time I debated this was in a “secular” Theology class many years ago, and got almost exactly the same answers.

I have to admit I was more up on the historical details at the time, now I am more concerned with the theological/moral aspect, as it pertains to the Catholic church.

If I start another thread about the Japanese conduct in WWII do you promiss to then coment on it?

 

[EBSSTF4]

That’s because the Catholic teaching doesn’t contradict what happened in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

???

Have you read any of my posts?

I will only repeat one quote, it sayes enough.

CCC

2314 "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."110 A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons - to commit such crimes.

I cannot believe how you rationalize this away.

 

[EBSSTF4]

If I start another thread about the Japanese conduct in WWII do you promiss to then coment on it?

I doubt I will have to. You will not pull any punches when it comes to the “enemy” violating the laws of god.

 

[Lance]

I doubt I will have to. You will not pull any punches when it comes to the “enemy” violating the laws of god.

Just as I thought. You would have happily seen thousands of Americans die just to save some Japanese (enemy) lives. Enjoy the life given to you by the men who died in all the wars America has fought. Remember, if your dear Japan had won we could not be having this discussion. You and I have nothing further to discuss.

 

[pro_universal]

The only reason I know about it because I went to School in Kansas with some kids who’s parents got sent to the camps. Made is very personal to me-as having my father waitng off the Coast of japan in 1945 waiting to invade give me a different perspective on this than you have,

How many children and women would you kill to save your father’s life?