There is a need to be better trust and respect in our priests and deacons than that or going around thinking they are wrong and don’t know what they are doing or even want to do the wrong thing. What is real sad on CAF is that there isn’t better respect or trust in our ordained priests and deacons and bishops.Possibly, yes. Priests and deacons are perfectly capable of being wrong.
Many of us who lived during the Nazi era find this gesture, especially when made by a crowd, to be extremely offensive. No one has to verbalize the comparison. It is obvious.The priest is asking everyone to pray for the person or persons, what is wrong with that?
I guess if you don’t want to raise your hand then don’t. Comparing this to Hei Hitler is pretty offensive even though you are claiming you are not trying to be offensive. Why don’t you ask your priest about it?
There are quotes from CCC about the faithful and blessing so this is just only an “opinion”When I first was introduced to the “Heil” blessing, I must admit that Hitler crossed my mind, but I immediately put aside the thought as ridiculous.
However, I still do not ever do this hand thing, because I consider it absolutely inappropriate. It is as if the people doing it seem to think that they are imparting some kind of blessing or power from their own hand, when actually only priests are able to impart blessings.
Praying for a person with your hands folded in prayer is just as effective (if not more, because the pride of showing off that you are imparting a prayer isn’t there with the hand thing) and is more humble.
I don’t think it is wrong or sinful for a person to pray in this way, but I do consider it strange and out of place, to say the least.
-prepares to get flamed-
Thanks for jumping to conclusions. Go on thinking like that, my friend, and you’ll soon make up a set of behaviors about everyone you know!There is a need to be better trust and respect in our priests and deacons than that or going around thinking they are wrong and don’t know what they are doing or even want to do the wrong thing. What is real sad on CAF is that there isn’t better respect or trust in our ordained priests and deacons and bishops.
Care you quote any?There are quotes from CCC about the faithful and blessing so this is just only an “opinion”
I don’t know when Catholics started doing this, but as a Protestant practice it goes back many decades, at least as far as the 1950s. So I can buy that this gesture is a Protestant import.the question was about people raising their hands at the end of Mass at the request of the priest to pray a special blessing like the OP said for an anniversary etc. The link you gave is about those going forward in communion to receive a blessing instead of communion, two different things. the “import” from Protestantism is just your own opinion and there is no proof to back it up.
^^^This.Many of us who lived during the Nazi era find this gesture, especially when made by a crowd, to be extremely offensive. No one has to verbalize the comparison. It is obvious.
It is not in the rubrics and it should not be requested, especially in a liturgical setting.
thanks for the link - I bless my daughter before bed every night and that is what I was referring tooDuring Mass I never thought of lifting my arm and hand in gesture of praying over someone as a symbolic reference to Hitler and his regime.
As for personally blessing someone outside of Mass as you suggest you may want to read this thread. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=407134&page=2
I put one in post 18, if you’re curious.Thanks for jumping to conclusions. Go on thinking like that, my friend, and you’ll soon make up a set of behaviors about everyone you know!
Care you quote any?
Dear Tim, few things give me more joy than my parents’ blessing. Let me clarify what I meant employing the words of Fr. Saunders:Anyone can bless their own children.
You can lay your hands on your children, make the sign of the cross over them, trace the sign of the cross on their forehead, and bless them exactly as any member of the clergy would.
Father’s always bestowed a blessing on their children in the Old Testament. That has not changed. A nice blessing is one form or another of the Aaronic Blessing from Numbers 6.
I bless my daughters like this all the time. I laid my hands on my daughter’s head and blessed her before she was confirmed the other night. I trace the sign of the cross on my daughter’s forehead before she walks into school every day.
-Tim-
Blessings are categorized into two types: invocative and constitutive. In an invocative blessing, the minister implores the divine favor of God to grant some spiritual or temporal good without any change of condition, such as when a parent blessed a child. This blessing is also a recognition of God’s goodness in bestowing this “blessing” upon us, such as when we offer a blessing for our food at meal time.
A constitutive blessing, invoked by a bishop, priest or deacon, signifies the permanent sanctification and dedication of a person or thing for some sacred purpose. Here the person or object takes on a sacred character and would not be returned to non-sacred or profane use.
When we read that in a liturgical context the priest asks the congregation to lay their hands upon peer laymen, just like he does, it gives - in my impression - an erroneous idea that the same thing is being done by the ordained minister and the lay faithful. This is not so. The priest blesses, of a constitutive blessing; the laymen invoke God’s blessing.Priests are the ordinary ministers of blessings, asking God’s help for those people being blessed or dedicating something to a sacred service. The blessing of a layperson upon another, such as a parent blessing a child, is an act of good will whereby the person implores God’s aid for the person; the value of this blessing in the eyes of God depends upon the person’s individual sincerity and sanctity.
Notice how clearly he defines the line that divides the bishop blessing, and the people praying the Lord to bless the bishop.And now I would like to give the blessing, but first I want to ask you a favor. Before the bishop blesses the people, I ask that you would pray to the Lord to bless me - the prayer of the people for their Bishop.
It was. The maniac (hitler) stole it from Rome. Heck, He pretty much stole everything from Rome. The Eagle, the Standards, Salute, the supremacy/caesar-like feeling etc.I thought this was originally a Caesarian salute? Not that I understand what it has to do with the blessing question, but as far as the origins of the gesture.
yes, it usually take someone like Hitler to pervert something. Likewise, Hitler didn’t exactly promote morality either, camps were set up for young people to meet and mate so there would be more “arians”. If someone found extending their arm in prayer uncomfortable due to memories of the Nazis is one thing but implying that it is wrong because in someone’s own opinion that it is is another.It was. The maniac (hitler) stole it from Rome. Heck, He pretty much stole everything from Rome. The Eagle, the Standards, Salute, the supremacy/caesar-like feeling etc.
hitler was just trying to imitate Rome. He forgot that Rome was successful and could be just at times. hitler never was. I actually think that the Roman empire, in comparision to these dictators, was actually a fair place to live (besides the sexual promiscuity that was rampant at the time)
What he did was horrible. I can’t even look at a history book with pictures of the Holocaust without literally shaking inside and out with horror and anger. Every time I see or hear about it, my blood boils and the fuse blows.yes, it usually take someone like Hitler to pervert something. Likewise, Hitler didn’t exactly promote morality either, camps were set up for young people to meet and mate so there would be more “arians”. If someone found extending their arm in prayer uncomfortable due to memories of the Nazis is one thing but implying that it is wrong because in someone’s own opinion that it is is another.
So let me get this right, the only time I’ve seen hands extended by the laity after Mass is over at the request of the priest himself in order to pray for someone usually celebrating something like a 50th or so and the priest himself is actually saying the prayer and ASKED the laity to pray with him is wrong? So I need to know where in Church cannon law or any GIRM you get your conclusion from? This is usually pretty rare and priests and deacons that request people to raise their right hands are just clueless and wrong?The “Roman salute” was used not only by Hitler and Mussolini (who started it before Hitler), but by many societies since Roman times, including the US, where it was known as the Bellamy Salute and was made with the palm up. Children used it for the Pledge of Allegiance until the salute began to be associated with the Nazis.
However, it is not appropriate for use during Mass, not because of what it looks like, but because it blurs the distinction between the clergy and the laity. The people should always unite their prayer with that of the priest, but the “orans posture” is reserved to the priest alone at Mass because it is a gesture of priestly blessing.
Okay what is the source for this insight. This did not happen in our dutch calvinist Christian Reformed Church that grew up in before I joined the RCC. Nobody ever blessed eachother, raised hands, held hands, hugged. They are protestants. And Dave BJ protestants are not unified, there are a multitude of forms of protestant. Therefore: do not make such broad sweeping generalizations. What denomination are you talking about. Not all forms of baptists will act the same way.I don’t know when Catholics started doing this, but as a Protestant practice it goes back many decades, at least as far as the 1950s. So I can buy that this gesture is a Protestant import.
^^^This.
In an attempt to instill a sense of democracy and ownership to a small group of students in a club, I suggested they come up with something we could do at the end of every meeting. They, unfortunately, came up with a motion and gesture that, when performed en-masse, morphed into the Roman Salute. I had to over-rule their choice, as amusing as I privately found it.yes, it usually take someone like Hitler to pervert something. Likewise, Hitler didn’t exactly promote morality either, camps were set up for young people to meet and mate so there would be more “arians”. If someone found extending their arm in prayer uncomfortable due to memories of the Nazis is one thing but implying that it is wrong because in someone’s own opinion that it is is another.
35 years of experience in Pentecostal, charismatic, and Baptist churches. Your mileage, as a Dutch Reformed, would, of course, differed. But not all Protestants are as . . . umm . . . stiff as the Dutch Reformed. Some are quite lively indeed.Okay what is the source for this insight. This did not happen in our dutch calvinist Christian Reformed Church that grew up in before I joined the RCC. Nobody ever blessed eachother, raised hands, held hands, hugged. They are protestants. And Dave BJ protestants are not unified, there are a multitude of forms of protestant. Therefore: do not make such broad sweeping generalizations. What denomination are you talking about. Not all forms of baptists will act the same way.
Back to the point why not just ask for your prayers in the bulletin or at the end of mass instead of singling out people.
Heh, to claim that you know about all Protestantism when you only know of one denomination is ludicrous.Okay what is the source for this insight. This did not happen in our dutch calvinist Christian Reformed Church that grew up in before I joined the RCC. Nobody ever blessed eachother, raised hands, held hands, hugged. They are protestants. And Dave BJ protestants are not unified, there are a multitude of forms of protestant. Therefore: do not make such broad sweeping generalizations. What denomination are you talking about. Not all forms of baptists will act the same way.
Back to the point why not just ask for your prayers in the bulletin or at the end of mass instead of singling out people.