"The Hidden Exodus" - Do Catholic Churches Need More Bible?

[josephback]

I always thought my Church did pretty good. The Catholic Church has a set schedule of Scripture readings that will take you through the New Testament in a year. Most Evangelical organizations have the pastor’s choice of Scripture every Sunday. Catholics do good on Scripture!

 

[JohnnyReb]

I don’t think that this is a good representation of the Mass. There is nothing more Biblical than the Mass.

First of all, in a 3 year liturgical cycle, you will hear virtually the ENTIRE Bible being recited at mass.

The doctrines of the Church as they pertain to the Mass (Acts 2:46-47, 1 Cor. 10:16), the Eucharist (Matt. 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:19-20, John 6:29-71, 1 Cor. 11:27-30**)**, *Confession *(Matt. 16:15, Matt. 18: 15-18, John 20:21-23, 2:Cor. 2:10, 5:18-20), *Baptism *(Ezk. 36:25-28, Acts 2:37-38, Acts 10:48, John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Eph. 4:5) and so on, are well-documented in the Bible.

**The Book of Revelation is filled **with similarities between Mass on earth and that of the heavenly liturgy. Here is a list of some of them:

Rev. 1:10** speaks of the heavenly liturgy being celebrated on the Lord’s day. Catholics are obliged to attend mass on Sunday (the Lord’s Day).**
Rev. 1:12, 2:5** speaks of lampstands or “Menorahs”** in heaven. They are also used in the mass here on earth.
Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14** tells us about priests wearing special vestments** in the heavenly liturgy. Here on earth, Catholic priests also wear liturgical vestments when celebrating Mass.
Rev. 2:5, 16, 21; 3:3; 16:11** speaks of a penitential rite** going on in heaven – just like the in the Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:3-4** speaks of the* “Gloria***” being recited in heaven. You will hear this recited during the Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4** mentions the priests** in heaven. On earth, the priest offers Jesus’ eternal and ongoing sacrifice during the Mass.
Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4** speaks of the saints in heaven interceding** on our behalf – just as they are petitioned in the Mass.
Rev. 4:8** speaks of heaven’s un-ending hymn of praise to God,* “Holy, Holy, Holy***”. This very same prayer is recited in the Mass.
Rev. 2:17** speaks of manna in heaven that is given to the faithful. Likewise, during the Mass, we receive the true manna - the Eucharist**.
Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4** speaks of incense being used in heaven which has been part of the celebration of the Mass from the beginning.
Rev. 6:9 tells us about the martyrs under the heavenly altar** which is mirrored by the Church’s tradition of having relics of saints under the altars of our churches on earth.
Rev. 5** speaks of the Lamb (describing Jesus). During the Mass, Jesus is described as the Lamb of God** during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7** speaks of an altar being present in heaven – which illustrates that an eternal sacrifice** is being offered. That sacrifice is the very same one being offered on the altar during the Mass.
Rev. 14:4** speaks of those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They are celibate. In the same way, our celibate priests** and religious here on earth follow the Lord.
Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4, 8, 10, 12, 17; 21:9** speaks of chalices** (bowls) being used in the heavenly liturgy. Likewise, chalices are used to offer our Lord’s eternal sacrifice on earth during the Mass.
Rev. 17, 19:9** speaks of consuming the Lamb at the marriage celebration in Heaven. This is done at every single Mass on earth during Communion**.
Rev. 19:1, 3, 4, 6** speaks of the “Alleluia**” being recited in heaven. You will find this recited at every Mass here on earth.
Finally, in Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4, we read that heaven’s concluding liturgical prayer “Amen” is the very one that is recited at the end of the Mass on earth.

This is a as good of explaination of the Mass as one can ask for. The book of Revelation is about the liturgy of the church, not this Left Behind “Rapture” end times non sense that its endorsed in the Evangelical world. Stop it with the stupid end times charts and predictions already…May 21, I meant October 21, my bad

 

[Revert_43]

I have not found this to be the case. I’ve heard a Reformed Baptist pastor give an in-depth theological analysis of a Biblical passage for 45 minutes. And I have not generally found Catholic sermons to be particularly substantive. I have found Catholic priests using jokes and anecdotes (usually poor ones) when they didn’t have a lot of time to give a substantive sermon in the first place.

Why not have pew Bibles?

Hi Contarini,

I say, for the second time in this thread, the Catholic Mass is not for in-depth theological analysis, it is to worship God and participate in the Eucharist. It is not reasonable to compare the two services (or sermons), each has it’s own different meaning.

Catholics are supposed to study scripture outside the Mass on their own or in study groups. Whether or not that is done and how it is done is a different question.

 

[C_the_K]

Aside from the Mass being soaked in scripture(of which I am also a regular lector), I also help facilitate the Bible Study at my parish church.

Many times in the fall when Bible study starts up we gte an inrush of people from CHRP retreats who have been renewed in their faith and want to know the Bible more deeply. You get others who are older and who really haven’t studied the Bible much. You might also get some recent converts.

There’s no shortage of announcements in the bulletin and before Mass about the BS. But we struggle to get more than 25 enrollees per session for Thurs night(there are more people, mostly seniors, who sign up for Friday morning).

We usually get between 18-24 sign ups at the beginning of the session, but about halfway through attendence drops by half(this happens for various reasons, mostly time).

Out Bible studies are structured according to Catholic Tradition and the standard interpretive methods therein. We just got done with Jeff Cavins “Great Adventure” series where I learned a lot.

The point I guess I’m trying to make is that you can’t force people to be interested in the Bible. I pray all the time that God will send that spark to my brothers and sisters to want to know more about Him through the BIble.

It also doesn’t help that Catholic Schools in the 70’s and 80’s taught so many bad things to people that were utterly at odds with the Faith. I’m still fighting misunderstandings, even with the lady who is our BS director.

I’ve had the same experience. Our parish offers bible studies, maybe between 15 and 20 signup and after a few weeks its down to 8 or 9. What’s wrong? Could it be the people that signup were expecting a lecture and maybe a group discussion but they found out they had to do a little outside studying?

 

[Nicea325]

Lack of instruction about scripture in Catholic seminaries is pretty appalling, so don’t blame the priest.

And what is more appalling is statements like these with no evidence.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

And what is more appalling is statements like these with no evidence.

See post #18.

 

[elvisman]

This is a as good of explaination of the Mass as one can ask for. The book of Revelation is about the liturgy of the church, not this Left Behind “Rapture” end times non sense that its endorsed in the Evangelical world. Stop it with the stupid end times charts and predictions already…May 21, I meant October 21, my bad

 

[Nicea325]

I’ve actually taught in a Catholic seminary, so I do know of what I speak–the situation is appalling. I’d challenge you to page through the M.Div requirements of ANY Catholic seminary on the web–the average is 4 to 6 classes on the Bible being required (of which two are typically courses at the introductory level), through which one only really scratches the surface. Requirements for study in original languages–which most Protestant seminaries at least attempt–is typically not required at a Catholic seminary, and sometimes not even offered, nor is the study of Latin required. Training for deacons is still less.

Most Protestants follow the Revised Common Lectionary, so the vast majority of the time, they are hearing the same readings that you are.

NONE of the above proves an iota of what you claim. Give me the name of the place you supposedly taught and I’ll find out if you are telling us the truth. I work for the RCC, I want to verify your claims.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

NONE of the above proves an iota of what you claim. Give me the name of the place you supposedly taught and I’ll find out if you are telling us the truth. I work for the RCC, I want to verify your claims.

I’m certainly not going to provide that information to you of all people. As I said in my post, if you don’t believe me (and I don’t expect you to), look on the Internet yourself for ANY Catholic seminary. My claims can be easily verified if you are truly interested in doing that.

 

[hn160]

Aside from Bible study? Where else should one study the Bible as a community? The Mass is a divine liturgy–a glimpse of heaven while we are on earth. The mass is what has been done since the time of the apostles–I am guessing that in the time of the apostles the readings were longer (at least thats the feeling I get from the writings of Justin Martyr) and the homily was probably a little longer–but it is unclear to me that delving into the readings in the way you suggest is what was done (but then I wasn’t there). We are following the model given to us by the apostles and doing what Christ commanded us to do.

At our Church we have Bible study available on two different days–a week day morning and on Sunday evening. I would guess that very few parishioners can’t make one of those two times–yet the vast majority do not attend. One can only assume it is because they don’t want to and that it’s not as important to them as Sunday night football or Desparate Housewives. I bet one can say that the vast majority don’t attend mass each and every Sunday also. Why don’t they attend every Sunday? Why do they check their watches if the mass runs over an hour? Why isn’t mass a priority for them? Why isn’t studying the Bible and their faith a priority? This is what puzzels me. People spend more time studying their fantasy football picks or movie stars than they do the Bible and their faith and getting to heaven. And lest anyone think I am casting stones–it should be noted that I spend far too much time mindlessly watching tv–and not nearly enough time in prayer and corporal works of mercy. I confess to almighty God and to you my brothers and sisters…

I guess what I am saying boils down to is this: that the opportunity is often there and the majority of Catholics simply don’t take advantage of that opportunity and I am not sure that spending more time delving in during the homily at mass–is going to make a difference–as the majority of Catholics don’t take advantage of Sunday mass attendence either. What is the old saying-you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink? And as one who has a priest who at times delves deeply – one often hears parishioners complain that the homily is over their head. It’s a no win job for the priest. They need to strike that hard to acheive balance not to simple, not to hard, but just right. One would like to say that you could run a cycle–the first time through the reading start “easy” explain the reading and if possible how it relates to Church teaching, the next time–go deeper and the next time deeper still. Repeat. That should cover everyone. Any way I suggest we all pray for our priests more and complain about them less (not that anyone in this discussion was doing that–just a general comment).

God Bless,
Mark

you said that the Mass is a divine liturgy–a glimpse of heaven while we are on earth… That is exactly the way Lutherans think of the Divine Service liturgy. As a matter of fact, there is a book on the Divine Service by Arthur A. Just, Jr titled Heaven on Earth, The Gifts of Christ in the Divine Service,

 

[Nicea325]

I’m certainly not going to provide that information to you of all people. As I said in my post, if you don’t believe me (and I don’t expect you to), look on the Internet yourself for ANY Catholic seminary. My claims can be easily verified if you are truly interested in doing that.

I certainly did not ask you to provide information out in the open,precisely why there exist a PM.You are right, I do not believe you,because I too can make a claim about non-Catholic seminaries and generalize them all.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

I’m certainly not going to provide that information to you of all people. As I said in my post, if you don’t believe me (and I don’t expect you to), look on the Internet yourself for ANY Catholic seminary. My claims can be easily verified if you are truly interested in doing that.

Since your the one making this claim, it is you that should back this up!

Matthew

 

[JamestheOlder]

I’m certainly not going to provide that information to you of all people. As I said in my post, if you don’t believe me (and I don’t expect you to), look on the Internet yourself for ANY Catholic seminary. My claims can be easily verified if you are truly interested in doing that.

Aw, c’mon, Dave. Name names. I attended a Catholic seminary…I was taught Scripture and its connection to Tradition. That makes me an “expert”, too.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Aw, c’mon, Dave. Name names. I attended a Catholic seminary…I was taught Scripture and its connection to Tradition. That makes me an “expert”, too.

Nope. I think that would unfairly single out one seminary (which I think many posters here would want to jump all over anyway as a “liberal” seminary and thus miss the whole point) when it’s just part of a much broader problem.

So then was your seminary experience in biblical studies somehow different from what I described? How many courses on the Bible were you required to take? Did you learn Greek, Hebrew and Latin? When did you attend? Is the course of study still the same?

 

[Nicea325]

Nope. I think that would unfairly single out one seminary (which I think many posters here would want to jump all over anyway as a “liberal” seminary and thus miss the whole point) when it’s just part of a much broader problem.

So then was your seminary experience in biblical studies somehow different from what I described? How many courses on the Bible were you required to take? Did you learn Greek, Hebrew and Latin? When did you attend? Is the course of study still the same?

Double-standards-eh? Others have asked you to support your claim, yet you walk away;but on the same token you are asking others to provide information?

 

[mackbrislawn]

Hi there,
It seems the underlying theme of departures is directly relevant NOT to social beliefs of the RCC, but a lack of Biblical focus and a lack of an engaging worship service:

Would it HELP the Roman Catholic Church to increase time spent on scripture interpretation at mass?

Do you AGREE with the article’s author that the Church needs to emphasize SCRIPTURE even above the Catechism?

Thanks all!

I think that in its catechesis the Church could reference scripture more. I have sat in on RCIA sessions a number of times, and so often I would see how when a subject was being taught, how a reference to scripture could be made, but wasn’t. I would often attempt to point that out, but it didn’t seem to be part of the standard mode of presenting doctrine. This leaves the Catholics, RCIA or catechism, bereft of the scriptural basis of what they believe.

Of course, there is an historical reason for this mode of teaching. Throughout most of the history of the church, the people could not read, and if they could, they didn’t have a copy or sroll of scripture to read, anyway! So, the bishops, priests, and scholars who did have scripture would study it and preach the results of their study to the people. So the people got scripture doctrine somewhat second hand, but that was okay, because the bishops were the authoritative successors of the apostles. It was their God appointed duty to pass the apostolic teachings on.

Historically, the way the people accessed scripture, both in the synagogue or church, was by assembling and hearing scripture read by a reader. That was the God-given way of sharing scripture, by listening to a reader. Notice this is a communal, collective experience. And primarily an aural experience, not visual. The visual experience came by stained glass windows, paintings and murals illustrating bible stories. Quite a bit different from a solitary individual with his own scriptures flipping through pages and underlying passages–quite a modern, man-made phenomenon, and not historical.

I don’t ;think that many realize, Catholics and Protestants alike, that the Catholic perspective on Church and Scripture is quite different than the Protestant perspective. You see, the Catholic starts with Church, and derives Scripture. The Protestant starts with Scripture, and derives Church. That deserves repeating, so I will. For the Catholic, the Church first exists, founded by Christ, and from that pre-existing Church, Christian scripture is born. However, it seems to me, that for the Protestant, Scripture first exists, taken for granted, and by reading Scripture, they form a church. That is why many churches call themselves bible based, or bible believing. “Bible churches.”

The Catholic Church, on the other hand, thinks itself as based upon the teachings of the apostles, and that the Bible is based upon the Church! That is why the Catholic Church, since its teachings are more directly derived from the apostles, doesn’t feel the urgency to relate everything to scripture. Of course it can be done, and the church fathers did exactly that. “Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ.”

Uh, this direct teaching of the apostles is sometimes called “Sacred Tradition.” You can see how sacred tradition came first, and scripture arose alongside it, and tradition formed the context in which scripture was written and is to interpreted. Neither is “above” the other, but Church and Tradition form the proper context for Scripture.

 

[cooterhein]

Fun Question or typically anti - Catholic comment? Most get your drift, I’d say…
Peace, Carlan

Like I said, it’s a fun question. In return, though, I do get your drift- perhaps it is more fun for me than it is for you.

 

[cooterhein]

Please provide a source for your contention that a Catholic must be “cleared” to read the Bible.

I didn’t make a contention, I asked a question. Were you planning on answering it?

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Why would you do that? Scott Hahn was never a prominent Protestant Biblical scholar. His prominence has come solely after his conversion, and derives more from his popular work than from anything he’s done within the scholarly guild, anyway. I figured you had Scott Hahn in mind, but I didn’t want to assume so. that’s why I made the point that some folks who weren’t necessarily famous as Biblical scholars were no doubt very knowledgeable, but you can’t just pick out people you like and declare them “among the most knowledgeable.”

Hahn is a very smart and learned guy and I have no desire to denigrate his scholarship, but when he converted to Catholicism he was not a published Biblical scholar. He wasn’t an eminent figure within Protestantism. Again, that’s not to his discredit, but if you’re “counting scalps” in terms of famous Protestants who converted (probably a bad idea, but it was yours, not mine), Hahn isn’t on the radar screen. He became famous only after he converted. He hadn’t completed his Ph.D. when he converted, in fact.

His work since then has been mostly popular and not within the guild–he still wouldn’t be regarded as a great Biblical scholar by most other scholars. But he certainly is a scholar with fine credentials, and I applaud him for writing work that non-scholars can understand instead of trying to score points within the guild.

The fact that you mention Scott Hahn undercuts your argument, because nearly every time a Catholic makes the claim you did, Hahn is the person they name first. If there really were all these Protestant Biblical scholars converting, you’d be able to name more–it wouldn’t begin and end with Hahn. (And, of course, I’m not claiming he’s the only one–only that his immense popularity in conservative American Catholic circles doesn’t entitle you to make claims about some larger trend of Protestant scholars converting, especially since his Ph.D. and most of his published work are Catholic, not Protestant.)

As Hahn’s own account makes clear, Hahn converted not because “the Bible” in some self-interpreting Protestant sense led him there, but because of his precommitment to a radical version of covenant theology. He had a theological grid within which he was interpreting the Bible. That’s fine. We all do. But to claim that this proves that whenever you interpret the Bible in context you’ll find that Catholicism is right–that’s just to repeat the basic Protestant mistake in defense of Catholicism.

The Bible is not self-interpreting. Interpreted as a historical document in its original context, it doesn’t support any theological system very well. It needs to be read within the context of the Church’s Tradition in order to function as the Word of God–while at the same time (here the Protestants are right, I believe) it retains an amazing power to challenge and renew the tradition.

Edwin

Other promenant former Protestants:

Jimmy Akin
Markus Brodi(“Coming Home Network”)
Jeff Cavins(the “Great Adventure” bible study series)
Mark Brumly(Ignatius press)
Mark Shea
Karl Keating
Steve Wood(dads.org)

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

I’ve had the same experience. Our parish offers bible studies, maybe between 15 and 20 signup and after a few weeks its down to 8 or 9. What’s wrong? Could it be the people that signup were expecting a lecture and maybe a group discussion but they found out they had to do a little outside studying?

That is something that I’m constantly finding in people who join(and I’m not trying to denegrate these good people, they are trying to learn the Bible). But the struggle with laziness is something that I find a lot. When people sign up and find out that they have to do work its a big turn-off for them and they easily get disinterested.

I even provide excerpts of extra-biblical sources and provide books for people to read & I even hand out my personal phone number so that if they have any questions that they can call me.

I think that in the two years that I’ve been doing this I think one person did call me twice with questions.

But I’m going to keep up the good fight.