The hierarchy of the Church

[NewEnglandPriest]

How could Jesus not know the structure of the Church today, and indeed the future of the Church? Are we so quick to forgo the omniscience of God to suit our needs?

Jesus was aware of all things throughout time, as we are told in John, He was in the beginning and nothing came into being except through Him.

Jesus didn’t know the “day or the hour” of the last judgment (Mt 24:36). Jesus at one point didn’t know who touched him in the crowd (Mk 5:30-32; Lk 8:45).

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

The idea that the laity ought to have (name removed by moderator)ut into what the Church teaches and how the Church operates is an utter novelty.

Could that be put as a sticky on the top of every forum?

 

[pnewton]

Jesus didn’t know the “day or the hour” of the last judgment (Mt 24:36). Jesus at one point didn’t know who touched him in the crowd (Lk 8:45).

Also, as a baby, He did not even know how to talk. Yes, I know Jesus emptied Himself and for thirty-three years out of eternity He was neither omniscient or omnipresent. I guess my concern is when we forget that He is also God, and one in being with the Father. Maybe I am a pollyanna, but He does have the whole world in His hands, we surely should trust that He knows what He is doing when it comes to His Bride.

 

[Digitonomy]

The idea that the laity ought to have (name removed by moderator)ut into… how the Church operates is an utter novelty.

I would suggest it’s actually scriptural. Acts 6:1 describes not just a change in practice, but the creation of a previously unknown holy order as the result of whining by the Greek laity.

 

[Digitonomy]

Jesus tells Peter to ‘tend my sheep’, but the word that John recorded is poimainō, to rule. It’s the same verb used to describe the relationship between a king and his subjects, or between an officer and his troops.

It’s also the same verb that John used to describe how Christ will rule in the Second Coming ( Rev 2:27, Rev 12:5 - "He shall rule ( poimainō) them with a rod of iron).

So clearly John is showing that Peter, the first Pope was given very strong authority, much more than the English verb ‘tend’ implies.

It could mean that, or it could simply demonstrate the poverty of the Greek lexicon compared with English. Unless there is another word for “tend” that is a more natural choice, I don’t think there’s anything clear about it.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by EasterJoy View Post
The idea that the laity ought to have (name removed by moderator)ut into what the Church teaches and how the Church operates is an utter novelty.

The Laity DOES have (name removed by moderator)ut in these matters. It’s not whether we OD have (name removed by moderator)ut, rather it is a matter of what form that (name removed by moderator)ut takes.

The Church is not something that stands apart from the people. How many times have we heard, or been told that we ARE the Church. We ARE the Body of Christ in the World.
Well - just as a body has many parts, each with a specific function and each contributing to the whole, so does the Church have the different parts - each of which contribute to the whole.

So - one asks then, what part does the Laity play in effecting what the Church teaches - what (name removed by moderator)ut does the laity have? A very important one. The Laity puts teachings into practice. The Laity asks questions. The Laity expresses concerns. The Laity points out places where a teaching might be unclear and need clarification.

Let’s look at an early issue in the Church - as recorded in Scripture. It was the Laity that brought up the problem of whether the Gentiles needed to become Jewish in order to become Christian. Some evangelists were teaching one thing while other evangelists were teaching something different…It was the laity who got seriously involved and sought resolution. This resulted in the council of Jerusalem, where the “Elders of the Church” gathered to resolve the matter.

Down through the centuries this has been the case. Even in our own time, issues come from the outside, from the laity or from the non-Catholic world, that require investigation and answers and usually, once an answer is given, there will be questions about the answer that will require clarification etc. The only real difference between now and the first century is that the Church has been at this for so long that the mechanism (the curia/magisterium) is so nearly perfected that we don’t recognize the actual workings, back and forth, give and take within it.

So we see that, even today, the laity have a vital role in what the Church teaches. Obviously fundamental truths cannot be changed, but how these are explained can and does change based on the needs of the laity - made known by questioning.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Jesus didn’t know the “day or the hour” of the last judgment (Mt 24:36).

Good point. But of course in this case it was something that Jesus said that the Father had reserved to Himself. In the case of The Church, Jesus said, “…I will build My Church…” It seems unlikely that He would not know how He was going to build His Church.

Jesus at one point didn’t know who touched him in the crowd (Mk 5:30-32; Lk 8:45).

In truth - I’m not so sure about this. I know that Jesus turned and asked who touched him, but asking the person identify themselves and to come forward does not necessarily equal not knowing who it was.
I suspect that He wished her to declare herself as part of the faith that healed her.

Just a thought…

Peace
James

 

[Digitonomy]

And maybe God knows exactly what he is doing and all of the various problems etc are precisely what need to happen in order for Christ to bring the Church to where He needs it to be…
Some of His administrators are maybe not so great, but His Church and it’s administration is as He wishes it.

If we accept that God is directly guiding the Church at every point along the way, then we must accept that God is causing the Church to be an instrument of evil from time to time, and that he is choosing actions of the Church that cause many to avoid knowing him.

The idea that God doesn’t do so himself, but permits Church leaders to do such harm is easier to accept, if only just.

I also derive some confidence in this idea by the fact that former Cardinal Ratzinger said something similar - that there are many examples of popes that the Holy Spirit obviously would not have chosen.

 

[Digitonomy]

we surely should trust that He knows what He is doing when it comes to His Bride.

Of course he knew what he was doing when he established the Church: he was leaving it in the hands of sinful men who exercise free will, who were therefore guaranteed to seriously bungle things from time to time.

 

[JRKH]

If we accept that God is directly guiding the Church at every point along the way, then we must accept that God is causing the Church to be an instrument of evil from time to time, and that he is choosing actions of the Church that cause many to avoid knowing him.

The idea that God doesn’t do so himself, but permits Church leaders to do such harm is easier to accept, if only just.

Precisely - God can and does guide His Church, but that doesn’t mean that everyone IN the Church is perfectly guided.

I also derive some confidence in this idea by the fact that former Cardinal Ratzinger said something similar - that there are many examples of popes that the Holy Spirit obviously would not have chosen.

Which makes it all the more amazing that the teachings have been so well preserved. The Holy Spirit is even more active in times of trouble - protecting the deposit of faith.

Peace
James

 

[Digitonomy]

Precisely - God can and does guide His Church, but that doesn’t mean that everyone IN the Church is perfectly guided.

So you’re saying that God in a vague way is guiding the Church generally in the right direction, while individuals from time to time muck things up and use the Church as an instrument of evil? That seems at odds with your suggestion earlier that God does precisely guide all of the various problems:

JRKH:

all of the various problems etc are precisely what need to happen

 

[Armyvet007]

How does the structure of the Church compare to the structure of Judism prior to the arrival of Christ?

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Also, as a baby, He did not even know how to talk. Yes, I know Jesus emptied Himself and for thirty-three years out of eternity He was neither omniscient or omnipresent. I guess my concern is when we forget that He is also God, and one in being with the Father. Maybe I am a pollyanna, but He does have the whole world in His hands, we surely should trust that He knows what He is doing when it comes to His Bride.

How much knowledge Jesus had during his incarnation is a legitimate debate. Voluminous amounts of theological works have been written on just this topic. Sadly, none of it is very interesting, lol.

The so-called “johannine community” appears to have been different from the communities of Paul. Yet they are just as apostolic. So I’m not sure we can say there was a single blueprint laid out from the beginning.

 

[opus101]

Are we so quick to forgo the omniscience of God to suit our needs?

Jesus was aware of all things throughout time, as we are told in John, He was in the beginning and nothing came into being except through Him.

Pnewton: You are quite right with this. By virtue of the hypostatic union, Jesus is one person (a Divine person) with two natures (human and divine).This article may help to solidify your truly Catholic position:catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7384

Also, a great book (if you can find it, it’s out of print I think) is “The Grace and Humanity of Jesus” by Jacques Maritain. Most importantly, there is a document on this topic by the Catholic International Theological Commission that refutes the common contemporary errors on this topic, but I forgot the title. I’ll try to find it.

 

[JRKH]

So you’re saying that God in a vague way is guiding the Church generally in the right direction, while individuals from time to time muck things up and use the Church as an instrument of evil? That seems at odds with your suggestion earlier that God does precisely guide all of the various problems:

No God is not “guiding in a vague way”. God, more specifically Christ, is Guiding His Church and also Guiding those in the Church who are truly seeking Guidance. But as usual, He won’t force himself on someone. I’m sure we all know “Catholics” who are pretty “lukewarm”, make it to Church on (most) Sundays but don’t really live their faith or seek to grow in holiness. They are just sort of there.
Is God Guiding them?? He will if and when they ask.

Individuals do “muck things up” as you say…but they do not change Church teaching…Sin remains Sin and Truth remains Truth.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

How much knowledge Jesus had during his incarnation is a legitimate debate. Voluminous amounts of theological works have been written on just this topic. Sadly, none of it is very interesting, lol.

The so-called “johannine community” appears to have been different from the communities of Paul. Yet they are just as apostolic. So I’m not sure we can say there was a single blueprint laid out from the beginning.

And what we see developing as the Church grew is the structure that was eventually needed to deal with various doctrinal and practical issues that arose in the early Church. Beginning with the debate over circumcision.
The Curia - the various Bishops conferences and so forth are simply natural and logical outgrowths of the growing church and it’s need for an orderly way to address various issues.

I don’t see why people have such a hard time with this.

Jesus spoke of the mustard seed and the resulting bush. Will people deny the trunk, the branches, the leaves of the bush, because they can’t see them in the seed?? That is what it’s like when people try to reject the Church structure because “it ain’t in the Bible”…

Peace
James

 

[opus101]

I just messed up this post, and when I deleted all of the info I was told I needed to include at least three characters. So here they are: Jimmy Durante, Victor Borge and Stephen Colbert.

 

[JRKH]

I just messed up this post, and when I deleted all of the info I was told I needed to include at least three characters. So here they are: Jimmy Durante, Victor Borge and Stephen Colbert.

:bounce::extrahappy:

 

[opus101]

FOUND IT! The title, that is. “THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF CHRIST CONCERNING HIMSELF AND HIS MISSION”, 1985, The International Theological Commission. I just found the title on the Vatican website, but it seems that the document is only available in Latin, Spanish and Italian! However, I know for sure that I read it in English while doing research for a Christology class in the 90’s. Now I will try to find where I located it in English! IT IS THE BEST AND MOST RELIABLE SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON THE SUBJECT!

 

[superamazingman]

FOUND IT! The title, that is. “THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF CHRIST CONCERNING HIMSELF AND HIS MISSION”, 1985, The International Theological Commission. I just found the title on the Vatican website, but it seems that the document is only available in Latin, Spanish and Italian! However, I know for sure that I read it in English while doing research for a Christology class in the 90’s. Now I will try to find where I located it in English! IT IS THE BEST AND MOST RELIABLE SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON THE SUBJECT!

can you post a link to the other versions?