The Historical Accuracy of the Biblical Exodus

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The life expectancy estimates are based on skeletal remains from the time period. There are lots of human remains from that time period. It is my understanding that skeletons last a very long time in the desert due to the low moisture and the dearth of other organisms that might help them decompose.
Finding hebrew-style burial sites would be a very good way to provide evidence. But again think like a nomad. They probably were not a settled community with hundreds or thousands of people dying every year and buried in safe and established burial grounds. If they were traveling constantly a burial would be wherever they happened to be, it could be anywhere, scattered single bodies buried in a 23,000 square mile area. A shroud, and a body in a shallow grave in sand. The desert is like a massive sand-blaster 23,000 square miles in area, imagine dunes moving like waves across the desert exposing skeletons and the storms of 3,000 years sand-blasting the skeletons to dust.
 
Its fine if you still want to make religious conclusions based on the books, but I think it is important to understand the limitations of what you are reading. People frequently point to the stories of Exodus as examples of how God cares for his people. That is foolish, it would be like pointing to the legend of King Arthur as evidence for the superiority of monarchy. It is not evidence of anything because it is fictional. If people want to understand Exodus symbolically, that is fine. If you think God is telling us that he takes care of us when we are wandering in figurative deserts, that is up to you. But to use the stories in Exodus as evidence of things God has done is to build your arguments on a very shaky foundation.
Getting on the topic of God (Caring For Us; I think by now if you take a conjectural guesstimate of how long the earliest sentient Homo Sapiens (With God Given Souls have been on earth, lets say somewhere in the vicinity of 25,000 years when Neanderthals disappeared or as few others conjecture to suggest 10,000 years. I think by now we should know that God is far more interested in the human soul than being ultimately worried about the physical frail weakness of the human flesh.

All through human history suffering has been an integral element of human survival. The People of God today are as much a stiff-necked people as they were in the biblical times during the Exodus. If God chose to place the vast number of people of Moses, 40 years in the Desert surely God had a reason for it. It was probably to burn-out the non-compliant chaff who didn’t want to adhere to the Ten Commandments.
Even Moses didn’t make it to the Promised Land.

No archaeologist is going to find empirical proof of skeletal remains of 1000’s of humans who died 4000-5000 years ago in the open sands of a desert.
If people want to understand Exodus symbolically, that is fine. If you think God is telling us that he takes care of us when we are wandering in figurative deserts, that is up to you. But to use the stories in Exodus as evidence of things God has done is to build your arguments on a very shaky foundation.

Why does it have to be a shaky foundation of belief for you unless you seem to think the writings in the Exodus as with other Biblical writings will hold weight if their ((“only”)) measured strictly by empirical evidence? Jewish biblical scholars weren’t haphazard in there study of scriptural writings passed down through the ages. Do you not believe that Spirit of God too was an instrument in putting scriptural holy writings together? Or would you choose to ignore that.
 
One thing I don’t understand is why the 40 years. A person could walk from Egypt to Israel across the north of the peninsula in two and a half days. :hmmm:
They were kept in the desert on purpose, so that the entire generation that worshipped the golden calf would die before entering the promised land. They weren’t incompetent, it was planned that way.
 
The problem I see with denying the basic historicity of the Exodus, is that it relates to the entire history of the Jewish people. Like the Ark of the Covenant indeed existed (still exists? who knows.) it is the most revered object in Judaism, and so when you deny the exodus ever happened, then that begs the question where did the Ark come from? Were the people just plain ignorant about its origins or what was contained inside? And then that puts into question the historicity of Moses, but historians who refuse to believe the Biblical account of the Exodus won’t go as far as to deny the existence of Moses, because Moses is attested to in various extra-biblical sources, even by non-jews.

So if you have a Moses, and an Ark of the Covenant as things that historians accept the existence of but then you deny the Exodus and the events on the Sinai peninsula, then what did Moses do that made him so prominent among the Hebrews? If Moses did not go up to mount Sinai to receive the 10 commandments, (even if you believe the story is just a myth, and that Moses carved the tablets himself) then for what purpose was the Ark made, and under what context? If the Hebrews as some historians have said had lived in Canaan all along and just made up a history for themselves then what was the basis for a leaderless people to suddenly be bound by these 10 precepts without any cause or explanation? not to mention the laws that were later instituted under Moses also became nationally binding on the Israelites and are still followed by Orthodox jews to this day in whatever capacity they can. The entire basis for the authority of Moses is based on the events of the Exodus, and so if the Exodus did not occur, then the leadership of Moses is left with no explanation, he was not a king, and yet all Israel followed him, under what basis was this done if not for what happened int he Exodus. there is also a huge unexplained hole in the history of the Jewish people if the exodus did not occur, we have customs and practices that are still performed today by Jews such as the passover which is all about the exodus, and these practices with their symbolism and deeper meaning are based on one event, an event many historians now do not believe ever happened.

It would be similar to historians 5,000 years from now denying that the American revolution ever happened, but if that was the case, then on what basis was a constitution instituted and followed by Americans for centuries? This is the way I see it, if there is no Exodus, then there are no Jews, and yet we can clearly see there are and they obey laws and hold customs born out of this event that as I said many are only now denying the historicity of.
 
Good question. The Jews, I think, have a traditional date of around 1,300 bc for Exodus, which is a good time also for a unique event in Egypt. Pharoah changed the entire religion of Egypt to monotheism and during his particular reign were also recorded several severe plagues etc.
Jericho carbon dating of the Canaanite city says it was destroyed between 1617 and 1530, but rounded as c.1550. But carbon dating is not totally reliable and there is always a possibility that some population remained, cities are probably rarely totally deserted.
hmm… in fact if you read the references on the wiki article on Jericho you will see;
  1. ^ Bruins, HJ and van der Plicht, J (1995). Tell es-Sultan (Jericho): Radiocarbon results of short-lived cereal and multiyear charcoal samples from the end of the Middle Bronze Age, Radiocarbon Vol. 37, pp. 213–220. A radiocarbon date of 3306±7 BP was obtained for grains probably remaining from the final few years. This corresponds to a date range (2 sigma) of 1617–1530 BCE by the 2004 calibration scale.
But if 3306±7 BP means 3306 plus or minus 7 years before present the would that mean that 3306 years minus 2011 + 1,295 BC for the last evidence of occupation of Jericho…
 
Good question. The Jews, I think, have a traditional date of around 1,300 bc for Exodus, which is a good time also for a unique event in Egypt. Pharoah changed the entire religion of Egypt to monotheism and during his particular reign were also recorded several severe plagues etc.
Jericho carbon dating of the Canaanite city says it was destroyed between 1617 and 1530, but rounded as c.1550. But carbon dating is not totally reliable and there is always a possibility that some population remained, cities are probably rarely totally deserted.
hmm… in fact if you read the references on the wiki article on Jericho you will see;
  1. ^ Bruins, HJ and van der Plicht, J (1995). Tell es-Sultan (Jericho): Radiocarbon results of short-lived cereal and multiyear charcoal samples from the end of the Middle Bronze Age, Radiocarbon Vol. 37, pp. 213–220. A radiocarbon date of 3306±7 BP was obtained for grains probably remaining from the final few years. This corresponds to a date range (2 sigma) of 1617–1530 BCE by the 2004 calibration scale.
But if 3306±7 BP means 3306 plus or minus 7 years before present the would that mean that 3306 years minus 2011 + 1,295 BC for the last evidence of occupation of Jericho…
I think the 3306 was not calibrated. If you enter the data here, you can reproduce their results.

Jericho is not the only city to consider. Hazor, Lachish, and Megiddo were not destroyed until much later (1250 - 1145 BC) for example.
 
Finding hebrew-style burial sites would be a very good way to provide evidence. But again think like a nomad. They probably were not a settled community with hundreds or thousands of people dying every year and buried in safe and established burial grounds. If they were traveling constantly a burial would be wherever they happened to be, it could be anywhere, scattered single bodies buried in a 23,000 square mile area. A shroud, and a body in a shallow grave in sand. The desert is like a massive sand-blaster 23,000 square miles in area, imagine dunes moving like waves across the desert exposing skeletons and the storms of 3,000 years sand-blasting the skeletons to dust.
Where did you get your 23,000 square mile figure? It looks like that is the area of the entire Sinai peninsula. We don’t have to dig up the entire peninsula to find dead bodies. There are a few proposed routes and places the Israelite stopped, we could simply excavate along those to see if we find unusual concentrations of bodies.

I think most exodus routes are less than 600 miles. If they traveled in a line 10 miles wide, that is only 6,000 square miles. If 600,000 people died in that area, we would expect an average skeleton density of 100 per square mile. That assumes an even distribution though, an area where the Israelites stopped for a while would have a significantly higher concentration. Obviously not all the skeletons will survive, but it seems likely that we could detect that large of a migration this way.
 
The problem I see with denying the basic historicity of the Exodus, is that it relates to the entire history of the Jewish people. Like the Ark of the Covenant indeed existed (still exists? who knows.) it is the most revered object in Judaism, and so when you deny the exodus ever happened, then that begs the question where did the Ark come from? Were the people just plain ignorant about its origins or what was contained inside? And then that puts into question the historicity of Moses, but historians who refuse to believe the Biblical account of the Exodus won’t go as far as to deny the existence of Moses, because Moses is attested to in various extra-biblical sources, even by non-jews.

So if you have a Moses, and an Ark of the Covenant as things that historians accept the existence of but then you deny the Exodus and the events on the Sinai peninsula, then what did Moses do that made him so prominent among the Hebrews? If Moses did not go up to mount Sinai to receive the 10 commandments, (even if you believe the story is just a myth, and that Moses carved the tablets himself) then for what purpose was the Ark made, and under what context? If the Hebrews as some historians have said had lived in Canaan all along and just made up a history for themselves then what was the basis for a leaderless people to suddenly be bound by these 10 precepts without any cause or explanation? not to mention the laws that were later instituted under Moses also became nationally binding on the Israelites and are still followed by Orthodox jews to this day in whatever capacity they can. The entire basis for the authority of Moses is based on the events of the Exodus, and so if the Exodus did not occur, then the leadership of Moses is left with no explanation, he was not a king, and yet all Israel followed him, under what basis was this done if not for what happened int he Exodus. there is also a huge unexplained hole in the history of the Jewish people if the exodus did not occur, we have customs and practices that are still performed today by Jews such as the passover which is all about the exodus, and these practices with their symbolism and deeper meaning are based on one event, an event many historians now do not believe ever happened.

It would be similar to historians 5,000 years from now denying that the American revolution ever happened, but if that was the case, then on what basis was a constitution instituted and followed by Americans for centuries? This is the way I see it, if there is no Exodus, then there are no Jews, and yet we can clearly see there are and they obey laws and hold customs born out of this event that as I said many are only now denying the historicity of.
Simple, Moses could have been a spiritual/military leader for these indigenous people that led them to some victory over the other Canaanites. The stories around his life fade into legend and get embellished. Different regions tell different versions of the story. When there was some political reason for belittling Egypt, the story of his leading people out of Egypt was added. As time went on, what was true and what was embellishment was lost. After several hundred years (~8th century BC) , the myth of Moses exists more or less as we have it now and the society has built some religious practices around it. Moses may have simply invented the 10 commandments himself, told his followers they came from divine inspiration and that they should make an arc to carry them around in just to sell his story.

The comparison to America is deficient because the future historians would see that we had the technology to accurately chronicle our own history and you’ve presupposed the future historians have a copy of the constitution. If future historians didn’t have the constitution, declaration of independence, or evidence of how our government was different from the British, they might not be able to establish that the US was able to break away and become a significantly different country from its colonizers. If they did have evidence that our government was separate from the British, they would obviously conclude that we fought for independence at some point (no country would give up a colony out of the goodness of its heart) but they might not know all the details.
 
Where did you get your 23,000 square mile figure? It looks like that is the area of the entire Sinai peninsula. We don’t have to dig up the entire peninsula to find dead bodies. There are a few proposed routes and places the Israelite stopped, we could simply excavate along those to see if we find unusual concentrations of bodies.

I think most exodus routes are less than 600 miles. If they traveled in a line 10 miles wide, that is only 6,000 square miles. If 600,000 people died in that area, we would expect an average skeleton density of 100 per square mile. That assumes an even distribution though, an area where the Israelites stopped for a while would have a significantly higher concentration. Obviously not all the skeletons will survive, but it seems likely that we could detect that large of a migration this way.
Well, go ahead and start digging. If they only walked 600 miles they would be resting for about 39.8 years. They all arrived alive at the border of Israel and then turned away. So you won’t find any bodies on the route from Egypt to Israel. So they turned away and hid in the desert somewhere for 39.8 years until they had died and their children were old enough to go and enter Israel without them.
 
I looked it up and the life expectancy at that time was right around 40 years. That would mean on average, no one survived the entire Exodus.
And yet again, the expectancy/span confusion strikes. It makes no sense to say “on average no one survived.” It makes lots of sense to say “most of the people who were alive at the beginning were not alive at the end.” But “on average, no one” is self-contradictory right there, because “no one” is not a term that can be predicated on the basis of a calculation of averages.

The book of Numbers says that God ordained the 40 years’ wandering so that the people who were rebellious would all die out, and only Joshua and Caleb would be left. Those who were children at the time would still be alive. That seems to assume that most people would die before the age of 60.

However, while I believe that there was a historical Exodus, I don’t take the details of the narrative as historical–they are more likely to reflect later theological concerns.

So I don’t find the 40-year chronology to be particularly significant for purposes of historical calculations. It could be historical–but it’s a highly symbolic number.

Edwin
 
Simple, Moses could have been a spiritual/military leader for these indigenous people that led them to some victory over the other Canaanites. The stories around his life fade into legend and get embellished. Different regions tell different versions of the story. When there was some political reason for belittling Egypt, the story of his leading people out of Egypt was added. As time went on, what was true and what was embellishment was lost. After several hundred years (~8th century BC) , the myth of Moses exists more or less as we have it now and the society has built some religious practices around it. Moses may have simply invented the 10 commandments himself, told his followers they came from divine inspiration and that they should make an arc to carry them around in just to sell his story.
But Moses did not even set foot in Canaan, he was not a military leader according to conquest (engaged in a few battles in the wilderness, but not of conquest), and he certainly was not regarded as a king. None of this explains why/how Moses was a spiritual/military leader, how did he get whatever authority he had? Instituting the type of laws that Moses introduced that regulated even the most minuscule aspects of life had to necessitate immense influence of some sort. So by what merit did he gain the influence that he had? And the institution of the passover would only make sense culturally if it happened, what purpose would the common Israelite have to celebrate the passover out of the blue if it was just made up? Moses’ contemporaries would call his bluff, and even if they were apathetic to the story he was selling and didn’t feel the need to oppose it outright, why was the practice so universally and devotedly attended to by all Israel? If Moses did indeed institute these things, then his peers would know he was fabricating all of this up, and yet they just blindly accepted a false history, land the laws practices and customs stemming from this false history? Why? It does not make any sense to me. A false history that made them look good? maybe. a false history that makes them look stupid? Why would they willingly exchange a real history of conquest for a fake history of subjugation and looking like idiots?
 
Instituting the type of laws that Moses introduced that regulated even the most minuscule aspects of life had to necessitate immense influence of some sort.
But obviously, if one is taking a skeptical view of the Torah, the first thing one would question is whether those laws actually come from Moses. In fact, I am pretty sure that most of the detailed laws do not.
So by what merit did he gain the influence that he had?
Well, if one doesn’t accept the basic historicity of the Biblical account, there’s really no way of knowing. Some scholars don’t think there was any such person at all. Others think he might have led a group of refugees from Egypt but that this wasn’t the massive event described in the Bible (that seems the most reasonable likelihood to me–I believe that the Exodus happened, but the numbers given in the Bible are pretty clearly not to be taken literally, and it’s quite possible that not all the people who later identified themselves as Hebrews actually descended from the group that came out of Egypt). According to Wikipedia, Martin Noth thought that Moses was an “obscure person from Moab” (not having read Noth, I don’t know what his arguments were for this interpretation!).
And the institution of the passover would only make sense culturally if it happened, what purpose would the common Israelite have to celebrate the passover out of the blue if it was just made up?
The Passover is clearly, at one level, an agricultural festival. As such, it needs no explanation. The question is: why would the ancient Hebrews come to associate it with traditions of having escaped from Egypt if none of their ancestors actually did so escape? One could come up with answers for this (maybe the “historical” meaning of the festival was imposed by later Yahwist reformers, etc.), but I think the most reasonable explanation is that some such event did happen.
Moses’ contemporaries would call his bluff,
I’m confused by this. What contemporaries? What bluff? We’re talking about texts that cannot be proven to have existed before the Hellenistic period, though I think they were written in their present form some time before that, and I’m fairly confident that major parts of them long predate the final editing. There is no evidence directly from Moses’ time, except maybe the “Stele of Merneptah,” which is pretty hard to relate to the Biblical account unless you go against the view of most scholars that it refers to Israel as a group already inhabiting Canaan. So why would a skeptic need to explain anything at all about Moses’ contemporaries?
and even if they were apathetic to the story he was selling and didn’t feel the need to oppose it outright, why was the practice so universally and devotedly attended to by all Israel?
Do you mean after the Exile? Because before the Exile, by the Biblical evidence itself, we know that it wasn’t universally and devotedly attended to by all Israel. Hezekiah’s and Josiah’s celebrations of the Passover are marked as unusual, even unprecedented (since the time of David and Solomon–but of course, a skeptic would argue that this is a legendary golden age, much as if you found a late medieval writer describing a tournament as “the greatest since the time of King Arthur”).
Why would they willingly exchange a real history of conquest for a fake history of subjugation and looking like idiots?
I think this is one of the strongest arguments in favor of the view that the Exodus really happened. How one approaches it depends on how one views the composition of the Old Testament. If one believes the stories in the Old Testament to have been written during or after the Exile, then there might be some support for the idea that Jews sought for an ancient parallel with the present reality of exile and postexilic existence as a small province of a great empire. You certainly see this in the exilic prophets, who compare the return from exile with the Exodus from Egypt.

Here, in my opinion, is where your argument about contemporaries is valid. It seems unlikely that these stories would have gained acceptance among postexilic Jews unless there had been much older stories of an Exodus from Egypt. In other words, it seems a lot more likely that the exilic and postexilic writers were drawing on ancient legend/tradition to explain the present reality than that they made up a story of which no one had heard before. So I think that part of your argument is highly plausible.

The part about “looking like idiots” is less so. Clearly the repeated descriptions of Israel’s sin and folly are making a theological point about the reasons for later divine judgment.

One important point to bear in mind is that the Hebrew Bible was not some kind of spontaneous creation of the whole people, reflecting a traditional, consensus view. At least, there is no evidence for such a view either from archaeology or from the Bible itself. The Bible consistently presents the majority of the people as idolatrous and disobedient. Granted, as I just said that could be polemical exaggeration to make a point. But in that case, the people making the point would obviously be making it at the expense of their fellow-Israelites. And the archeological record bears out the Biblical claim that the religious practices of most Israelites for most of the pre-exilic period had little to do with what the Bible said ought to be done. That part seems pretty solid, whatever one’s position on the accuracy of the Bible as a whole.

Edwin
 
All during the Exodus we saw miracles. Who is to say anyone died during the 40 years? Perhaps manna was a superfood.
They died, everyone one of them, with the exception of Joshua and Caleb.

So in his anger with the Israelites the LORD made them wander in the desert forty years, until the whole generation that had done evil in the sight of the LORD had died out. (Numbers 32:13)

-Tim-
 
A couple helpful items…
  1. This discussion of 40 years is not a historical number. Any half decent Jewish or Catholic theologian will tell you the number 40 signifies a renewal. Everytime God wants to start over or reset something, the number 40 pops up.
  • Noah’s flood : 40 days and nights - wiped out sinful civilizations and started fresh
  • The Exodus : 40 years - the amount of time it took the highly paganized Israelites to learn the law of God and become His people.
  • Jesus fasted in the desert : 40 days - The after of this event signified the beginning of His ministry. A conversion from a passive child/God to active man/God.
  • Moses was on Sanai for : 40 days receiving the tablets. - A passing from non-nation to the proclamation that Israel is a people (nation) of God.
  1. 600,000 men over 20. Add wives and kids an the number swells to something like 3.5 million.
 
Does the Catholic Church have a position on the historical accuracy of the biblical exodus? It seems that historians and archaeologists have found no reason to believe it occurred, and that the search for evidence has mostly been abandoned in scholarly literature.
A few words from our Jewish neighbors:

jewishworldreview.com/0401/prager.exodus.html

And from a Catholic group:

biblestudyforcatholics.com/catholic-bible/study-information/118/exodus-adventure-called-freedom

Peace,
Ed
 
It is not historical. But the revelation is what it matters. It seems that there were migrations of Jews but not that way
the history of salvation is done on the incredible acts tht God is able to do for his people. The interpretation is what matters.
On what basis do you make this claim?

Peace,
Ed
 
Sorry, the Turkish government forbids anyone from entering. It is definitely not a tourist site.
It is a little known fact that Turkey is suspicious of “tourists” who may be foreign agents in disguise as well.

Peace,
Ed
 
Does the Catholic Church have a position on the historical accuracy of the biblical exodus? It seems that historians and archaeologists have found no reason to believe it occurred, and that the search for evidence has mostly been abandoned in scholarly literature.
I am not 100% sure but I think one of the reasons some archeologists do not believe Exodus occurred is because there are no Egyptian records. But it would be very unlikely the Egyptians would record the events such as the 10 plagues because they only recorded triumphs. The Exodus would not of been something they would want to record.

There are historians and archeologists that believe the Exodus happened. I recommend this documentary ‘Who Was Moses?’

Israel In Ancient Egypt - Archaeological Proof
Using the latest archaeological evidence from the stables of Rameses ll to little-known ancient Egyptian texts, Egyptologist and Bible Archaeologist show that Israel did in fact exist and had a presence in ancient Egypt. This is the 2003 documentary “Who Was Moses?”
youtube.com/watch?v=-0-ULxk2BJ4

I recommend the book, ‘Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition’ by James K. Hoffmeier

There are inscriptions in Wadee El-Mukattab, Sinai that record some of the events from the Exodus from a non-Hebrew source:

bibleprobe.com/exodus.htm
 
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