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mom_07
Guest
Are there any secular historical writings that mention Christ or Christians? If so, where can I find them? If not, why not?
Terri
Terri
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bogeyjlg
Guest
The Jewish historian Josephus.
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But_for_Grace
Guest
Josephus mentions Christ in his “antiquities of the jews” there are two references, one is probably a christian interpolation, the other may be origional. the second mentions the death of James the brother of Jesus “who was called Christ”
this is the probable christian insertion
“3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.” Book 18 ch3
and this is the probable only origional quotation
“so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:” Book 20 ch9
Josepheus published his “antiquties of the jews” in A.D. 93
this is the probable christian insertion
“3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.” Book 18 ch3
and this is the probable only origional quotation
“so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:” Book 20 ch9
Josepheus published his “antiquties of the jews” in A.D. 93
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Gracie2004
Guest
A better suggestion might be the Roman historian Tacitus. He was a contemporary of the apostles, not related to the Church in any way whatsoever, but was a historian of the times…he recorded the followers of ‘Christus’ in his histories, and that Christ was crucified, and I believe (would have to go back and reread to know for sure) that he mentions that he was crucified by Pontius Pilate.
The reason I use Tacitus over Josephus, is that Jews do not even recognize Josephus as a reliable historian. So it’s good to use other historians of the time.
Hope this helps you.
“Tacitus was the greatest of the ancient Roman historians, writing around 100-110 A.D. He is considered the equal of modern historians in regard to getting the facts, though some charge him with being too hard on some, such as Tiberius.” Fr. William Most.
The reason I use Tacitus over Josephus, is that Jews do not even recognize Josephus as a reliable historian. So it’s good to use other historians of the time.
Hope this helps you.
“Tacitus was the greatest of the ancient Roman historians, writing around 100-110 A.D. He is considered the equal of modern historians in regard to getting the facts, though some charge him with being too hard on some, such as Tiberius.” Fr. William Most.
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Liberian
Guest
But for Grace:
I must admit that I find it amusing that a reference in a non-Christian work that supports Christianity is viewed as a “probable Christian insertion.” It is, I think, another example of the typical double standard: evidence against Christianity is accepted at face value while evidence for Christianity is considered flawed. I’m not disagreeing with it, mind you–I don’t have the knowledge in the field to disprove it–but I would maintain a healthy skepticism.
- Liberian
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mom_07
Guest
Thank you so much.
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mom_07
Guest
That is so true. People definitely have a bias view of the Church repressing the world, including revising history to cover up her corruption. Alas. Nothing could be further from the truth.
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savone
Guest
mom 07:
Only after His death and resurrection, the sending of the Apostles, and their obedience to the Lord’s command did these “followers of the way” begin to draw notice by the seculars. From there, we know the rest of the story.
Simply, during the time of the earthly Jesus and his disciples, they were not important. He and they were just another group similar to such groups of rabbis and disciples in Palestine. Remember, Rome and the Emperor were on center stage. No CNN to follow Jesus and the disciples.
Only after His death and resurrection, the sending of the Apostles, and their obedience to the Lord’s command did these “followers of the way” begin to draw notice by the seculars. From there, we know the rest of the story.
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But_for_Grace
Guest
the reason that the more favorable quotation in Josephus is questioned is that it is not extant in the earliest manuscript, and it doesn’t flow with the rest of the chapter. The style also changes slightly in the passage (Book 18 ch3) from refering to “the Jews” to using “us”
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infoguy
Guest
…
The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel is an excellent book that covers this topic. It’s an accessible, fun, and easy-to-read book.
Strobel addresses the writings of Josephus, Tacitus, and Pliny the Younger, among others.
A terrific book!
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I’ve heard The Historical Jesus by Gary Habermas is also excellent, and I’m pretty sure he covers this topic as well.
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The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel is an excellent book that covers this topic. It’s an accessible, fun, and easy-to-read book.
Strobel addresses the writings of Josephus, Tacitus, and Pliny the Younger, among others.
A terrific book!
…
I’ve heard The Historical Jesus by Gary Habermas is also excellent, and I’m pretty sure he covers this topic as well.
…
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Vox_Borealis
Guest
mom 07:
More works appear as we move later in the second century AD. For example, Lucian makes fun of Christians, as does Galen in a brief passage; they are also mentioned by Marcus Aurelius, Meditations. I do not know much about the historical/literary criticism of these later references (whether scholars consider them interpolations, for example).
The earliest non-Christian writings about Christianity come from the late 1st or (more likely) early 2nd century AD. Tacitus, Annales 15.44 describes the persecution of Christians under Nero; Pliny the Younger, Epistles 10.96-97 record a provincial governor’s dealing with Christians c. 110, and what the emperor at the time thought. Suetonius, Life of Claudius 25 mentions a mysterious Chrestus, which may refer to Jesus but the passage is very problematic. As someone else has already pointed out, the famous passage in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.3 would be the earliest non-Christian reference, but the passage is almost certainly an interpolation; see the Catholic Encyclopedia entry at NewAdvent.org: newadvent.org/cathen/08522a.htm.
More works appear as we move later in the second century AD. For example, Lucian makes fun of Christians, as does Galen in a brief passage; they are also mentioned by Marcus Aurelius, Meditations. I do not know much about the historical/literary criticism of these later references (whether scholars consider them interpolations, for example).
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