The "Historical Jesus"?

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thephilosopher6 said:
The names of the authors of the four Gospels don’t appear in tradition until about 90-100 years after they are thought to have been written (even later if you accept the traditional view).
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What does this mean? What ‘tradition’ and how is it dated?
 
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Gabrielle said:
We have to interpret these finding with the light of faith, but never, ever should we be against or close ourselves to this knowledge.
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Some ‘knowledge’ is dangerous and it is perfectly fine for Christian to avoid things that will challenge their faith.
 
Well, we have Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Orgien (180-250 A.D). Some also include Justin Martyr in there (155 A.D.). Some have cited Papias (130 A.D), but there are a few problems with this. First, the quotes from Papias come from a second hand source, Eusebius. Second, there is little context behinds his quotes, especially regarding “Matthews Gospel”. For all we know, he could have been speaking about something entirely different from what we now regard as the Gospel of Matthew, and indeed we know of at least two other “Gospels of Matthew” in circulation at the time. Third, Papias himself wasn’t a first hand source, apparently he heard this all from John the Elder. That makes Papias a second or third hand source, and then of course we don’t even have independent works of Papias, so Eusebius just adds another layer.
 
So you take the earliest extant material and extrapolate that this must be around the time when it originated?

Seems kind of counter-intuitive.
 
We don’t know when it originated, but we don’t have any first hand accounts, and the research that has been conducted on the large scale suggest something different from the traditional point of view.
 
Well, it’s a quite large picture. For example, in regards to the resurrection we actually do have a first hand source, 1 Corinthians 15:3-8, though it is being quoted. Most scholars see this as an early creed composed from around 6 months to 5 years after the cross. The fact that Paul received the creed he quotes in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 directly from the disciples is really really really good. We now know for a fact that Christianity began as a resurrection movement, that the earliest Christians really did believe they witnessed Jesus alive again, and that there probably was an empty tomb of some sort (I certainly believe there was).
 
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So we have no idea whether or not the original Gospels were named or not, or rather, we don’t know that they were anonymously written.
 
We do know they were anonymous and widely circulated, but as to when the tradition of their authors started coming up, we do not know.
 
I agree with you that there are ideas that are dangerous, but ( I’m not arguing you okay? I may be wrong and if I am please do let me know. This is merely my opinion at the moment 🙂 ) I believe that so long as we know our faith well and have someone to help us when we reach a road block, it may be good to know, especially the historical and scientific arguments both good and bad, so we can better defend our faith. I’m in college, and prior to my entrance into college my mom did limit a lot of what I learned in fear that I would fall pray to lies. The problem is that when the arguments came, when the professors challenged me, I had very little material, that they accepted, with which to fight back. Did I face doubt? Oh yes! I fought it time and time again, but I am grateful that it came because it pushed me to study and seek advice from priests and other people who helped learn and understand so much more than I could possibly have know if I had remained in my comfort zone. I still feel a little bit of panic when a situation like this comes my way, especially when like you say it is knowledge that I know can be incorrect, but no knowledge is truly bad. Even if it incorrect it can lead us to further study the truth and to find new ways to defend our faith efficiently. I don’t believe closing our eyes to these things ins the answer, but facing them fearlessly when they come and making them weapons themselves to fight the lies they may present. Thank you for your response 🙂 God bless
 
That might be one way of looking at it, but allow me to suggest a radical notion that will certainly bring down the shrill brigade:

Maybe going to college was the mistake.
 
Well, I certainly respect your opinion and thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me :). I am very happy I went though. I am in the nursing field and have been able to help and give love to my patients in who I see My suffering Lord. Learning about how He designed the human body the incredible way in which everything is so intelligently arranged and beautifully put together in nature helped to admire the amazing God behind it all. During my time taking generals I learned many valuable things too. Learning about the time period Our Lord faced helped to love Him all the more for taking that on 😂. Please do not be afraid of learning. Education is a beautiful thing and never a mistake. If it is in the Lord’s will that I should ever have children I will definitely make sure they are well educated in all areas. I want them to go out there and face the world bravely, confidently and with the information they will need to embrace the full beauty of Our Lord’s creation with faith and intelligence. That is, in my opinion, how you protect their faith. Because regardless of weather one goes to college or not, opposing views will come along at one point or the other, and when that moment comes insulation will only lead to shock. People can throw almost anything my way at this point and not only have I heard it before, but either I’ve studied it or read about it on some level. I know how to respond to them and where I need to go for answers when I don’t have them( to continue learning! You see, that’s the beauty of it 🙂 ). The Lord gave us a mind and a world to explore with it, don’t give up that gift. God bless 😊!
 
I am glad I went but now wish I would have had the maturity to study more and party less.
 
  1. I found a book, written in the early 2000’s, stating that Germany was involved in WWII.
  2. There are no earlier books in my immediate vicinity saying that.
  3. Therefore, the idea that Germany was involved in WWII originated in the early 2000’s.
When you use historical criticism, anything is possible!
 
imo they come up with what they want to come up with.
The Jesus seminar is actually a rather small, very liberal group that shouldn’t be paid credence. They give completely undue credit to the Gospel of Thomas, for instance, and their views on what qualifies as the “real sayings” of Jesus seem arbitrary.

What gets me is that we have the opinions of those who were there saying the order in which the Gospels were written, yet modern scholarship attempts to look at it thousands of years later and now mixes the order up and adds a completely hypothetical text (“Q”) to help it all work out.
 
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Kei said:
The Jesus seminar is actually a rather small, very liberal group that shouldn’t be paid credence.
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We could start the new year with satire from 2016:

babylonbee.com

Historical-Critical Scholar Doubts Authorship Of Paper He Wrote

NEW HAVEN, CT—Noted higher critic, scholar, and professor of New Testament at Yale Divinity School Dr. Gunther Burg has published a paper casting serious doubt on the authorship of another paper he wrote several years ago.
babylonbee.com babylonbee.com
 
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