P
PickyPicky
Guest
Golly! Charles Thomas? You move in distinguished circles!
- Status
G
GKMotley
Guest
Even more so, if I had ever had the honor of meeting him. His sister was in the antiquarian book business for many years, as I was, for a few years. I assisted and advised her, in my specialties.
No! It is quite characteristic of Luther, to be hyperbolic, and to be overt in his expression, particularly with his friends and colleagues who knew exactly what he was saying. He was not giving permission to sin, or even supporting sinful acts. He was not saying sin has no consequences. His friends knew that.
He was speaking about the greatness of God’s grace. He believed strongly in confession, repentance, and newness of life.
The context of this letter is one of a conversation with a friend. "_If you are a preacher of Grace, then preach a true, not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly. For he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here we have to sin. This life in not the dwelling place of righteousness but, as Peter says, we look for a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. . . . Pray boldly-you too are a mighty sinner.” _
Amen
J
James817
Guest
Well maybe he should’ve used better words. From the context he seems to be either negligent or professing a doctrine contrary to Christ or Paul. Case in point, it doesn’t look good either way.
Maybe, but it was a private letter, not a doctrine statement, advice to a friend, who didn’t need catechetical class. I’m sure he read between the lines.
D
De_Maria
Guest
Is there anything in that letter about repentance and about ceasing to commit sin? Anything in that letter comparable to St. Paul’s advice:
1 Corinthians 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And how does it compare to St. Paul’s words:
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Or to Christ’s:
John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
But, perhaps you’ll address the rest of my question:
Now, I’m thinking that this man could have married a regular woman. But, he chose to marry a woman who had promised herself to God. And he claimed that he did this in order to “spite the devil”.
So, it doesn’t seem like hyperbole to me. It sounds to me as though he thought of sin as some kind of sacrament, wherein he obtained grace.
So, think about it. Was it considered a sin to call the Pope the anti-Christ? To call the Church the whore of Babylon? To speak vulgarities?
No, it doesn’t sound like hyperbole to me, at all.
No. It’s a letter. Please reread what I just wrote.
He didn’t have to include an entire doctrinal statement to get his point across to Melanchthon. Melanchthon and Luther both knew and wrote about repentance and confession and believed in it.
But this is exactly the problem with the kind of polemical attack-apologetics from people like O’Connor.
Then perhaps you should read more of what he wrote. Luther’s comments about the papacy were harsh, though I suspect no more harsh than he thought being called a heretic was.
That a modern Catholic thinks them vulgar isn’t surprising. I think them offensive.
I’m sure there were not a few offensive things that Catholics said, too. But I don’t care about that. I don’t care about the personal foibles of popes or cardinals or bishops or priests, them or in recent decades. Trying to attack a tradition or belief by attacking prominent individuals within it only drives wedges and animosities deeper. It happens on both sides. I’ve seen what Lutherans and others have written about Catholic leaders. I’ve seen what secularists have written about Catholic priests. None of it has anything to do with Catholicism.
Even worse is when an individual is misrepresented by using partial quotes taken out of the context of the document and the time it was written. But, I guess that kind of polemics isn’t going away soon.
D
De_Maria
Guest
Do you believe the saying, “Actions speak louder than words.”?
Yes. They often condemn all of us. Sometimes I wonder what a non-Christian lurker must think of Christians when witnessing threads like this. Including me.
Last edited:
D
De_Maria
Guest
Good. I agree. Luther’s words and actions are consistent with a man who put himself before God. An immoral person.De_Maria:
Yes…
Whether he ever repented of his sins, is between him and God.
J
James817
Guest
If we are discussing this advice to a friend, nay a disciple, this private conversation is now history. A pretty important conversation, no?
I doubt he would have referred to himself as a disciple of anyone but Christ.
As is the judgement that he put himself before God.
But I will leave you to your personal judgement
P
PickyPicky
Guest
Oddly, only last Wednesday I was watching a television report on the Glasgow University project which has been reopening and extending Thomas’s excavations on Iona. Here’s the project website:
J
James817
Guest
It’s not a crime to have disciples. John did. Paul did. But we aren’t discussing that are we?
Last edited:
G
GKMotley
Guest
I thank you for the link, which I will bookmark, along with the connecting links, for perusal. I note that the picture of Dr. Thomas, at one of the links, reminds me of his sister.
Last edited:
True, under the following caveat:
10I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” 13Is Christ divided?..
J
James817
Guest
You would do well to consider the context:
10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree together, so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be united in mind and conviction. 11My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: Individuals among you are saying, “I follow Paul,” “I follow Apollos,” “I follow Cephas,”a or “I follow Christ.”
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that I do not remember baptizing anyone else. 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with eloquent words of wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Elsewhere in the same letter he says:
14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you as my beloved children. 15Even if you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I urge you to imitate me.
10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree together, so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be united in mind and conviction. 11My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: Individuals among you are saying, “I follow Paul,” “I follow Apollos,” “I follow Cephas,”a or “I follow Christ.”
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that I do not remember baptizing anyone else. 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with eloquent words of wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Elsewhere in the same letter he says:
14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you as my beloved children. 15Even if you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I urge you to imitate me.
Amen…
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Remind me of Bahai posters that we had in the old format. Man, they were rather chatty about their belief and before long a thread would be full of them. Miss them though.
- Status