The historicity of Moses and the Exodus account

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Hi,
I’m Raafat, a new member here. I wasn’t born Christian, Muslim to be specific.
I left religion due to issues of science, philosophy and history.

I want here to ask about specific historical events, in particular did Moses exist? Did Exodus really happen?
Did Moses even write the Torah? If so, how come it contains the account of his death?
What about the JEDP theory of Torah?

If a topic can’t satisfactorily answer these point, may anyone redirect me to books or websites addressing such issues.

Thanks,
Looking forward to discussing with you.
 
There is no way to prove Moses existed; there is no way to prove he didn’t exist.

There is no way to prove Moses wrote the Torah; there is no way to disprove Moses wrote the Torah.

These are questions which boil down to faith. One either has faith Moses existed and wrote the Torah, or one has faith that Moses did not exist and did not write the Torah.
 
But if it only boils down to blind faith, then how do you argue for your faith?

To prove that it is true.

I’m speaking for myself here, if I’m sufficiently convinced, next day you’d find me getting baptized.
 
It’s not blind faith.

It’s faith moved by whichever arguments you find to be more persuasive.
 
But what’s the persuasive argument here?

Sorry, if I sound attacking, I’m not even remotely doing so.
 
You don’t sound attacking.

I’ll give you more later, got to go now!
 
There is another thread about this. Probably there are more.
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OT miracles rationalized away (Moses parting sea) Apologetics
(continued) Concerning the account of the Resurrection in all four of the gospels, what exactly are you referring to that appears to be a contradiction? Upon reading, meditating, and studying Holy Scripture, the following advice from St Augustine I think is very helpful for all of us: “I have learned to yield this respect and honor only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am p…
 
I want here to ask about specific historical events, in particular did Moses exist? Did Exodus really happen?
Freud’s last book, Moses and Monotheism, sets out the case against the Biblical account of the enslavement of the Israelites in Egypt followed by their escape and return to the land of their origin. Freud’s primary thesis is that thousands of slaves, of many different nationalities, escaped from Egypt under the leadership of Moses, an Egyptian officer who was about to be arrested and probably executed for the murder of a brother officer. The fugitives spent many years searching for a safe place to settle until they finally crossed the Jordan into the land then known as Canaan. In the course of their long march, the escaping slaves and their descendants merged into a single nationality, calling themselves the Israelites or, later, Judahites (Jews). According to Freud, this was a wholly new national identity: prior to the Exodus there had been no Jews or Israelites.

Freud’s two secondary theses:
  1. Some of the twelve tribes did not join the new nation until after the original Children of Israel had arrived in Canaan.
  2. The Moses who led the Children of Israel to the border of Canaan was the successor to the earlier leader, also named Moses, who had organized the escape from Egypt many years previously. Neither of the two Moses was Jewish to begin with.
Freud says he got the idea from a university colleague, Ernst Sellin, who was a professor at the Evangelical Faculty of Theology in the University of Vienna (1897-1908). Freud is not denying, of course, that the Exodus is a historical event or that Moses was the true historical leader of the fugitives. His revisionism has to do, above all, with the background to the Exodus, not with the event itself.

 
For the last 150+ years, there have been a gazillion articles published in all sorts of scholarly journals about the historicity of Moses and the Exodus account. 🙂 It’s probably the most popular subject in Biblical archaeology. 😛

For me, I like the hypothesis of Amenhotep II being the Biblical pharaoh. Some points in its favor:

You’re looking for a Pharaoh who was not a firstborn (because he didn’t die in the tenth plague) and was also succeeded by a not-a-firstborn (because his presumptive heir died in the plague). Amenhotep II was born to Thutmose III by a minor wife and his elder brother Amenemhat, son of the great chief wife, was the heir presumptive. Amenhotep II was succeeded by Thutmose IV, of the famous Restoration of the Sphinx and the Dream Stele, so we know he wasn’t the presumptive heir, either.

Another issue is not having a solid narrative about whether or not Pharaoh died with his army at the Red Sea. Exodus says that Pharaoh’s army was destroyed, but it doesn’t specify that Pharaoh was destroyed with his army. The Psalmist talks about how “water covered their adversaries; not one of them remained alive” in reference to the Exodus account, which would imply that there were no exceptions, but again, that’s poetry, and it’s hard to tell what’s poetry and what’s factual. Still, with the Amenotep II theory, that would require a Pharaoh whose reign ended abruptly if you’re looking for pharaoh to die, and it doesn’t matter if you’re looking for a pharaoh who survived. We have a general idea of most of the regnal periods of that dynasty, and we know that Amenhotep II reigned for decades. (26? 30? 35 years?) So if the pharaoh survived the Red Sea incident-- there’s no problem. But if you want to argue that you’re looking for a Pharaoh who perished, you can get into looking at some inscriptions on steles commemorating the Asiatic campaigns. Which I can’t really analyze without going way over the word limit.

There’s lots of theories. Each one has their own sets of facts that sound persuasive. This is one I happen to like. I’m also very fond of it because it puts Akhenaten within, say, a century of the Exodus account, and we all know how well-received his notions were. Much of it is put down to the Theban priests not wanting to surrender temporal power… but a lot of it could be flavored with “not this again”! 😛

One thing that needs to be remembered is that we’re still trying to pin events in ancient Egyptian history to solid dates that match the way we calculate time. Over the last 100, 150 years, there’s been significant shifts in the way Egyptologists calculate dates. I have a book by Budge that pins Amenhotep II to 1566 BC— try comparing that guess to any of the current timeline theories. (Hint)
 
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It is highly unlikely that the dates of the Exodus, or of the particular Pharaoh which the account relates to will ever be known. The best to be expected seems to be educated guesses. I’ve never found one that is persuasive because there are always too many questions, and an almost complete lack of evidence to support any particular theory.

What we can say for certain is that the Exodus story became a part of Israel’s self-identity. That is far more important than any answers coming from historical inquisitiveness of its reality. The story is real in the sense that it was treated as real, that is - it has theological importance. That far outweighs anything that could be gotten from knowing who the Pharaoh was, what year it happened, or at which particular mountain in the Sinai Israel camped.
 
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I left religion due to issues of science, philosophy and history
Why don’t you tell us what’s on your mind and maybe we can help? Your question seems a bit indirect though, why does Moses and the Old Testament bother you so much? I could understand if you were considering Judaism but for Catholics it’s not a massive deal.
 
Hi, Erikaspirit.
Pardon me, but I don’t get the point of the
Iinked reply.
I mean, it says, if the story is fictional, then the Jewish/Christian/Islamic is indeed fictional, and that is my point.
 
Hi, BartholomewB
It is all fine and dandy till you consider that if Moses is Egyptian and the original Hebrews were a Mishmash of nationalities, then why would God lie?
He clearly says that Moses was Hebrew and that he rescued more than half a million from slavery, and that really contradicts some of Freud’s points.
Also, an Event of this magnitude would have surely been recorded, yet there are no records, that I know of, to record it.
 
Hi, midori
Thanks for the informative reply, but I beg a question here. What is the evidence that the plagues happened? Is it written in their histories that something similar to the biblical plagues happened?
You mentioned the Psalms and maybe, just maybe, it is referring to a myth as it serves to convey the Psalmist message.

Also, I’m not sure why Akhenaten is important, may you clarify your point?
 
Hi, wiggbuggie
I read the Wikipedia article but I don’t know how can these be linked to the Hebrews, nothing in their history is anything like the supposed Hebrew history.
 
First, Jesus mentions Moses.

John 5:46

New International Version
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.

New Living Translation
If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me.

English Standard Version
For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

Matthew 19:8:

New International Version
Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

New Living Translation
Jesus replied, "Moses permitted divorce only as a concession to your hard hearts, but it was not what God had originally intended.

English Standard Version
He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

And the recent nonsense speculation about Exodus:

http://www.chabaduchicago.com/templ...-Exodus-did-not-occur-there-is-no-Judaism.htm
 
Hi,
I left religion because it contradicts history, science and makes claims which is unfounded and sometimes immoral.

Science: Is the universe really built in 6 days? Is Earth really made before the heavens? Why heavens is treated as a physical thing? Evolution is clearly science, and yet It is contradicted by scripture. These are just examples

History: Where are Abraham, Jacob, Sam,and Noah? You know how can we prove they existed?

Philosophy: Why would God punish temporary and limited humans with eternal and unlimited torture, that’s sadistic and immoral.

Why suppose a God in the first place, why shouldn’t universe be eternal, the big bang, says what banged and how it banged, but it doesn’t say whatever banged where it came from.
We can never prove Angels, and Demons and other heavenly beings.

That’s a lossy summary of my thought.
 
Hi, edwest211

Umm, let’s say I’m skeptical of the Bible, I have so many questions about its authenticity.

I’ll look at the link you provided.
Thanks.
 
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