The historicity of the Church

[joe371]

I can’t cause scripture tells me He gave us parents and teachers and presbyters, prophets, elders and the Holy Spirit etc., etc., all with authority, yet all are subject to His Word,written or not.
No where.

We see these folks in every church, regardless of denomination. Were they all given the authority, by Jesus, to teach and settle doctrinal differences, as they are moved by the Holy Spirit?

 

[benhur]

We see these folks in every church, regardless of denomination. Were they all given the authority, by Jesus, to teach and settle doctrinal differences, as they are moved by the Holy Spirit?

To teach yes,even settle some differences.Your mom ever staighten you out, even with a doctrine or practice, while a child ? As far as doctrinal differences all are asked to stand up for what Truth has been given us, especially leaders. As far as differences in new developments, like Jerusalem, the whole church, including apostles and elders were involved.

 

[benhur]

You forgot to answer his question: who did Jesus entrust the true interpretation, if not the CC? Hundreds of denominations can’t be right.

Correct, not even two can be right as we mentioned papal doctrine. Jesus entrusted then as He continues to entrust today. I don’t believe He like “wound up the clock” just before He ascended to then step aside. He continues to entrust to whom He sees fit, in every generation.

Sure they do quite well. No one is doubting that. I think what it comes down to is this: you do not believe that God preserves doctrinal truth within the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Churches, or one of the Protestant Churches? That is certainly one way to go…

Don’t give up. You know I do believe God preserved and preserves doctrinal truth thru the C, the O and P churches (cop), each to different extents and at different times.

 

[joe371]

Correct, not even two can be right as we mentioned papal doctrine. Jesus entrusted then as He continues to entrust today. I don’t believe He like “wound up the clock” just before He ascended to then step aside. He continues to entrust to whom He sees fit, in every generation.
Don’t give up. You know I do believe God preserved and preserves doctrinal truth thru the C, the O and P churches (cop), each to different extents and at different times.

God preserved, and continues to preserve doctrinal truth thru the Catholic Church, the Orthodox church and all of the Protestant Churches i.e. the C, the O and P churches?

I am am not sure what you mean when you say, (regarding the preservation of doctrinal truth) Jesus continues to entrust to whom He sees fit, in every generation. Could you clarify?

 

[joe371]

benhur;11925664]To teach yes,even settle some differences.Your mom ever staighten you out, even with a doctrine or practice, while a child ?

Yes, but she was never given the final authority, by God, to resolve doctrinal disputes.

As far as doctrinal differences all are asked to stand up for what Truth has been given us, especially leaders.

And all of these different church leaders cannot be right, when it comes to said doctrinal differences. Either God left us with His church, (leadership) guided by the HS, thus enabling those church leaders to pass on all truth to each generation, or the HS is guiding all of the churches to teach something different, regarding those doctrines that divide; pretty cut and dried…

As far as differences in new developments, like Jerusalem, the whole church, including apostles and elders were involved.

Agreed, and they all belonged to the same Church. It’s when people break away and began teaching something different, that doctrinal disunity rears its ugly head.

 

[benhur]

Fallen-away leaders, such as Judas, do not render apostolic succession null and void. Apostolic succession is explicitly biblical, and the way God preserves truth. If apostolic succession is no guarantee, then nothing is…unless you can illustrate otherwise?

It is not making succession null, but merely to show that to be ordained in that succession doesn’t guarantee Christ will guide that bishop(s) into all truth. I was thinking of Catholic bishops who left in schisms (381 and great schism and others). Christ does ask will there be any faith when He returns, and there will be apostasy. Yet , there will be a remnant, bishops that remain true, as evidenced in some of the Councils like Nicea and the few that followed dealing with Christology . I do not frame the Lord’s guarantee as you do. It is not all or nothing with succession. I do not institutionalize it as much or wrap it up only in CC. Your paradigm would be nice for unity or simplicity sake . The tares are in with the wheat, and He will not deny a seeker yet He speaks in parables and reveals mysteries to us. Things are the same as they were when He ministered for three years, simple yet confusing but all possible with Him.

 

[joe371]

benhur;11925889]It is not making succession null, but merely to show that to be ordained in that succession doesn’t guarantee Christ will guide that bishop(s) into all truth.

Agreed. I have faith that God guides His church as a whole, (as opposed to any one deacon, priest or bishop via the Petrine office + ecumenical council. History bears this out. Of course I respect your right to disagree.

I was thinking of Catholic bishops who left in schisms (381 and great schism and others).

It seems that they chose to walk away from the church guided by the Holy Spirit, in terms of the fullness of truth. That is their right of course.

Christ does ask will there be any faith when He returns, and there will be apostasy. Yet , there will be a remnant, bishops that remain true, as evidenced in some of the Councils like Nicea and the few that followed dealing with Christology .

Notice Jesus never asks: will there be any truth. Just the opposite in John 16:13.

I do not frame the Lord’s guarantee as you do.

I have faith that God continues to guide the church established by Jesus, into all truth. No guarantees though.

It is not all or nothing with succession. I do not institutionalize it as much or wrap it up only in CC.

I just have faith that the fullness of truth can be found in the church established by Jesus; no disrespect to any other church, where truth can also be found as per the CCC.

Your paradigm would be nice for unity or simplicity sake . The tares are in with the wheat, and He will not deny a seeker yet He speaks in parables and reveals mysteries to us. Things are the same as they were when He ministered for three years, simple yet confusing but all possible with Him.

:thumbsup:Which is why Jesus’ church desperately needs the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as per scripture, when it comes to doctrines that divide.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicea325
After you show me where Jesus granted full authority to Scripture-only?

Benhur:
I can’t cause scripture tells me He gave us parents and teachers and presbyters, prophets, elders and the Holy Spirit etc., etc., all with authority, yet all are subject to His Word,written or not.

Yes subject to God’s words,no where binded to written words alone. Also granted to His Church. However, that is not what you said. These are your words verbatim:

Show me where any authority is above Holy Writ

Evidently you are stating SS (Bible-only) or the written words alone are the final authority. Again, where is it taught in the Bible or by God Himself?

Quote:
BTW: Where does God state His Word is binded to written Words alone?

Benhur:

No where.

Which is it? The Scriptures-only (SS) are the final authority or not? If not,then how can you even suggest the Holy Bible is the final authority above all others?

Precisely why SS is a late innovation no where to be found or taught from the written word or oral traditions.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicea325
Per CC interpretation? Then tell me who did Jesus intrust the true interpretation,if not the CC? Thousands of denominations all can’t be right.

Benhur:

Actually it is not thousands. In this there is unanimous unity.

No my friend, it is thousands. Look it up in Protestant publications. Sorry,but the whole “unanimous unity” is a cop-out. Another way of justifying the never ending splintering resulting from the Reformation. If there exist unanimous unity,then why not unite as one? Evidently they cannot be “unanimously united” or else they wouldn’t continue to be separate entities.

There are Catholics who believe in the Pope and there are Protestants, who do not believe in that office. That’s it (except for the Orthodox). It’s not thousands of interpretations on this matter, just two.

And apparently two is far to many. Did Jesus gives us two interpretations or two choices of our own liking? You tell me what Jesus says in the Bible. I read and comprehend from the Bible and history the church acknowledged the office from Christ (Catholic/Orthodox). Protestants simply refuse church authority and the end results speaks volumes: denominations.

Quote:
How did the church operate? Easily…via Jesus granting her authority. Jesus did not have to write down scripture to prove his point or teaching.

Well it obvious that some do quite well without the office, but “pappas” (bishops), yes.

But it is not about doing well or it feels right to me. It is not about doing our will with Christ Church. Again…did Jesus found a loose-knit church where everyone decides for himself or herself what Jesus truly founded or meant? I doubt God in the Flesh was a confused human and left us to determine.

As far as the Lord giving us Scripture it does help you explain the 5 or 6 offices you believe He has given the Body, and us the 4 or 5 offices that we believe in.

And yet those offices did not need or require written proof to make them legit or did Jesus say otherwise?

 

[benhur]

I have faith that God continues to guide the church established by Jesus, into all truth. No guarantees though.

Sounds like you were guaranteeing apostolic succession and for sure CC says infallible in doctrine.

 

[benhur]

No my friend, it is thousands. Look it up in Protestant publications. Sorry,but the whole “unanimous unity” is a cop-out. Another way of justifying the never ending splintering resulting from the Reformation. If there exist unanimous unity,then why not unite as one? Evidently they cannot be “unanimously united” or else they wouldn’t continue to be separate entities.

Nicea, we were talking about Papal doctrine, Papal office… “There are Catholics who believe in the Pope and there are Protestants, who do not believe in that office. That’s it (except for the Orthodox). It’s not thousands of interpretations on this matter, just two”, per previous post.

And apparently two is far to many. Did Jesus gives us two interpretations or two choices of our own liking? You tell me what Jesus says in the Bible. I read and comprehend from the Bible and history the church acknowledged the office from Christ (Catholic/Orthodox). Protestants simply refuse church authority and the end results speaks volumes: denominations.

Agreed. Two is too many. One would be nice but…I would be more accurate to say we only reject papal authority and not all church authority… Yes, denominations may be the result, as the Jews in OT had factions also yet all were Jewish, as we in NT are part of the Body…Still, agree and understand your abhorrence to division from having no pope. That is one end of the spectrum. Now, would you think there is another end to that spectrum that is unfortunate, even to be abhorred also, with a pope ?

But it is not about doing well or it feels right to me. It is not about doing our will with Christ Church. Again…did Jesus found a loose-knit church where everyone decides for himself or herself what Jesus truly founded or meant?

I mentioned churches that had no pope but “pappas” as in the Orthodox, who use that term for their bishops. They are doing “well”. Are you saying they (Orthodox) all decide for themselves true meaning without the head pope ?

And yet those offices did not need or require written proof to make them legit or did Jesus say otherwise?

OK when it comes from the mouth of the apostles. Just like today’s successors take the Lord’s written word thru them as legit.

 

[benhur]

Yes subject to God’s words,no where binded to written words alone. Also granted to His Church. However, that is not what you said. These are your words verbatim:
Show me where any authority is above Holy Writ
Evidently you are stating SS (Bible-only) or the written words alone are the final authority. Again, where is it taught in the Bible or by God Himself?

I agreed to not alone as in His Word vs Written Word or that both have existed. I asked then if His Word is above His Written Word ?

Which is it? The Scriptures-only (SS) are the final authority or not? If not,then how can you even suggest the Holy Bible is the final authority above all others?

Tell me, would God ever contradict Himself in Writing or by Word ? Therefore I would say if one claims He is giving new Words, they must align with the authority of His Written Word, for surely they will no contradict but be united.

Precisely why SS is a late innovation no where to be found or taught from the written word or oral traditions.

The response by some would be if it is a late innovation it is in response or inevitable outcome of an intermediary innovation of the Church or Tradition having infallible authority over and thru Scripture…Is not this our history ?

 

[joe371]

Sounds like you were guaranteeing apostolic succession and for sure CC says infallible in doctrine.

I have faith that God uses apostolic succession to preserve truth. I have faith the God teaches infallibly via His church, comprised of all fallible sinners.

 

[joe371]

The response by some would be if it is a late innovation it is in response or inevitable outcome of an intermediary innovation of the Church or Tradition having infallible authority over and thru Scripture…Is not this our history ?

God teaches infallibly via His church using sacred tradition + sacred scripture. God get’s all the credit. The alternative: God failed, at some point in history, to continue to infallibly guide His church. That’s pretty much it…

 

[benhur]

I have faith that God uses apostolic succession to preserve truth. I have faith the God teaches infallibly via His church, comprised of all fallible sinners.

OK

 

[benhur]

God teaches infallibly via His church using sacred tradition + sacred scripture. God get’s all the credit. The alternative: God failed, at some point in history, to continue to infallibly guide His church. That’s pretty much it…

Reminds me of how some people say God kind of failed at the Garden of Eden and so on and so forth, or how can God be so good and loving when He allows so much evil. …Actually your first statement is quite universal. He does teach us, and teaches no error, and He does use His church and tradition and scripture and many other things, even nature and people. It is when we further define “church” and “tradition” and “scripture” that we lose each other.

 

[joe371]

Reminds me of how some people say God kind of failed at the Garden of Eden and so on and so forth, or how can God be so good and loving when He allows so much evil. …Actually your first statement is quite universal. He does teach us, and teaches no error, and He does use His church and tradition and scripture and many other things, even nature and people. It is when we further define “church” and “tradition” and “scripture” that we lose each other.

OK. However, I believe it’s when people leave Jesus’ church, where God infallibly teaches, and go out on their own…

 

[benhur]

OK. However, I believe it’s when people leave Jesus’ church, where God infallibly teaches, and go out on their own…

Not sure if we are full circle yet but I don’t believe any church is perfect in any way of itself. Jesus is perfect (teaching) and strives us to be so also (in the learning/doctrine)…I guess it might help if i disagree and say the CC is not perfect in it’s teaching but that no other church is also. I would also emphasize not leaving Jesus more so than leaving one of His churches for another. I would agree that the closer you are to Him the more “accurate” teaching will be found in the church you are at, generally speaking. Proof is in the pudding, the fruits of being in the fountain of Living Water. Having said that I would also say that some are so in tune and in love with Jesus their fruits shine despite their total cumulative doctrine…We both don’t like it when someone leaves a church that we believe has fuller truth to go to one that is not so “full” or as “truthful”.

 

[joe371]

Not sure if we are full circle yet but I don’t believe any church is perfect in any way of itself. Jesus is perfect (teaching) and strives us to be so also (in the learning/doctrine)…I guess it might help if i disagree and say the CC is not perfect in it’s teaching but that no other church is also. I would also emphasize not leaving Jesus more so than leaving one of His churches for another. I would agree that the closer you are to Him the more “accurate” teaching will be found in the church you are at, generally speaking. Proof is in the pudding, the fruits of being in the fountain of Living Water. Having said that I would also say that some are so in tune and in love with Jesus their fruits shine despite their total cumulative doctrine…We both don’t like it when someone leaves a church that we believe has fuller truth to go to one that is not so “full” or as “truthful”.

Not one church is perfect; all churches, as I mentioned before, are comprised of fallible sinners, and therefore imperfect. Moreover, the CC is not perfect regarding their teachings if Jesus failed to guide the Catholic Church in a way that allows them to teach all truth, as opposed to some truth mixed with error. I have faith that Jesus’ Catholic Church is free of doctrinal error due to the work of God alone! You do not, and that’s cool.

 

[benhur]

Not one church is perfect; all churches, as I mentioned before, are comprised of fallible sinners, and therefore imperfect. Moreover, the CC is not perfect regarding their teachings if Jesus failed to guide the Catholic Church in a way that allows them to teach all truth, as opposed to some truth mixed with error. I have faith that Jesus’ Catholic Church is free of doctrinal error due to the work of God alone! You do not, and that’s cool.

OK Blessings.