The historicity of the Church

[pablope]

Yes, I have read Clements’ letter to Corinth. I have spent two years reading the writings of the Church fathers through the fifth century, especially Augustine. I find no definitive proof in any of these writings (or in Church history) that support the Roman Catholic doctrine of Apostolic Succession. I wanted to believe the Roman Catholic Church has the authority She claims to have with all of my heart but in the end I could not and so I must remain Protestant. I have to say it was a very painful journey.

Well, I have a backed up septic system to tend to…a big mess in the basement…FUN!

God bless you.

Ed

It is not only the RCC that believes this, it is also the Eastern Churches, the Orthodox who believes in this.

So it is both the Original Churches from Pentecost that believe in this.

So the question is…why do you believe you are right? What is your basis?

 

[pablope]

You are right.The Bible nowhere states that it is the only authoritative guide for faith and practice. However, we know that the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative. .

Where does the Bible claim it is the solely the Word of God?

And is the Word of God limited to the Bible?

That being the case all traditions, doctrines, and practices, whether Protestant or Roman Catholic, must be tested against what God has revealed in the Bible.

Okay…here is another question for you: Who will do the testing against the Bible?

Until someone proves to me another authority equal to the Bible I remain Protestant

Actually, without realizing it, you just made yourself your own authority…your own pope, in making the assertions on the Bible alone belief.

 

[pablope]

Exact citation of your source would be helpful. In which published document do we find this text?

Sorry…here it is:earlychristianwritings.com/

Look for 1 Clement…earlychristianwritings.com/1clement.html

 

[Nicea325]

**During Jesus time and before, the authority was from the holy scriptures.**Jesus quoted alot of scriptures as an authority of his mission and actions, and reverence to God. Here are some examples:

Mark:12:24: And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
Mark:14:49: I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.

Luke:4:17-18: And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, the Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor…
Luk:4:20: And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister
Luk:4:21: And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Luke:24:44: And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Luk:4:3: And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
Luk:4:4: And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Jesus used the OT scriptures to authenticate his Messianic mission. He used the same Scriptures to defeat the devil.
In Matt 28:20: Just before Jesus ascension, he commanded his disciples to, “make disciples and teach them to observe all things which he had commanded them…”

This is where the doctrine of scripture-alone and scripture = tradition loose one another.
Traditions were also there during the OT, but Jesus did not refer to them.

Really? Where does Scripture explicitly state it was “the” authority?

And simply because Jesus quotes from the Scriptures does not prove they were the highest authority.

You like so many have been duped into believing a false man-made tradition called the Bible-only.

 

[Nicea325]

You are right.The Bible nowhere states that it is the only authoritative guide for faith and practice. However, we know that the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative. That being the case all traditions, doctrines, and practices, whether Protestant or Roman Catholic, must be tested against what God has revealed in the Bible. Until someone proves to me another authority equal to the Bible I remain Protestant.

Thank you! Then you just proved it is a man-made invention no where to be said, let alone taught. Then how can you say:

Until someone proves to me another authority equal to the Bible I remain Protestant

Where is the proof it is the highest authority and yet no others exist?

And where does God teach it must be tested against the Bible?

And where does God state His words are binded to written words alone?

 

[edkw55]

It is not only the RCC that believes this, it is also the Eastern Churches, the Orthodox who believes in this.

This statement is true.

So it is both the Original Churches from Pentecost that believe in this.

This statement cannot be proven historically or Biblically. In the end the Roman Catholic doctrine of Apostolic Succession must be accepted as a matter of faith. The authority claimed by Rome is clearly on shaky ground.

So the question is…why do you believe you are right? What is your basis?

The Bible and history.

Why do you think you are right?

 

[edkw55]

“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen.”~(Martin Luther - at the Imperial Diet of Worms in 1521)

Was Luther a flawed and sinful human being, of the fallen race of Adam, just as the rest of us? Yes. Some of his opinions and beliefs were despicable. Nevertheless, on the issues of authority and justification I stand with Luther.

Peace be with all.

Ed

 

[edkw55]

Thank you! Then you just proved it is a man-made invention no where to be said, let alone taught. Then how can you say:

Until someone proves to me another authority equal to the Bible I remain Protestant

Where is the proof it is the highest authority and yet no others exist?

And where does God teach it must be tested against the Bible?

And where does God state His words are binded to written words alone?

I have been very clear as to what I believe the Bible to be.

Now I ask you…what do you believe the Bible to be?

In His Grace.

Ed

 

[edkw55]

During Jesus time and before, the authority was from the holy scriptures.
Jesus quoted alot of scriptures as an authority of his mission and actions, and reverence to God. Here are some examples:

Mark:12:24: And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
Mark:14:49: I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.

Luke:4:17-18: And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, the Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor…
Luk:4:20: And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister
Luk:4:21: And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Luke:24:44: And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Luk:4:3: And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
Luk:4:4: And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Jesus used the OT scriptures to authenticate his Messianic mission. He used the same Scriptures to defeat the devil.
In Matt 28:20: Just before Jesus ascension, he commanded his disciples to, “make disciples and teach them to observe all things which he had commanded them…”

This is where the doctrine of scripture-alone and scripture = tradition loose one another.
Traditions were also there during the OT, but Jesus did not refer to them.

This is true. Jesus and the Apostles always quoted Old Testament Scripture. They never quoted tradition. They made it clear where they stood on the authority of the bible.

 

[Nicea325]

This is true. Jesus and the Apostles always quoted Old Testament Scripture. They never quoted tradition. They made it clear where they stood on the authority of the bible.

Really? So show us where Jesus explicitly stated Scipture is the highest authority? Jesus made it clear? Kindly shows the verses where it is clear where Jesus stood?

 

[Nicea325]

I have been very clear as to what I believe the Bible to be.

Now I ask you…what do you believe the Bible to be?

In His Grace.

Ed

Key words: what I believe the Bible to be.

What you believe,not what God said or taught;hence a man-made tradition by Protestants. You cannot put words in God mouth and expect others to believe God Himself said it or taught it.

 

[edkw55]

Key words: what I believe the Bible to be.

What you believe,not what God said or taught;hence a man-made tradition by Protestants. You cannot put words in God mouth and expect others to believe God Himself said it or taught it.

Yes, this is what I believe.

Regarding my question above, what do you believe the Bible to be?

 

[edkw55]

Really? So show us where Jesus explicitly stated Scipture is the highest authority? Jesus made it clear? Kindly shows the verses where it is clear where Jesus stood?

I admitted in a previous post that you are absolutely right. Nowhere in the Bible does it make a claim of being the only authority. I cannot show you verses that do not exist.I can only state what I believe regarding the authority of the Bible. Sola Scriptura.

 

[Nicea325]

Yes, this is what I believe.

Regarding my question above, what do you believe the Bible to be?

Okay,it is what you believe,but it is not biblical.

What do I believe the Bible to be? Exactly what the church says about it. Look it up in church documents.

 

[Nicea325]

I admitted in a previous post that you are absolutely right. Nowhere in the Bible does it make a claim of being the only authority. I cannot show you verses that do not exist.I can only state what I believe regarding the authority of the Bible. Sola Scriptura.

It is a authority…but not “the” authority or highest.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Am I a heretic in thinking that God allows us a certain degree of liberty in what we believe the Eucharist to be(a symbolic ordinance, Consubstantiation, Transubstantiation, etc.)?

As far as consubstantiation/transubstantiion, it’s a rather fine point and, while there are some errors at the logical end of the con- issue, it’s probably not something that is required to be understood by laypeople.

However, I’ll let a great Early Church Father give HIS opinion on the “symbolic ordinance” belief:

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Ignatius of Antioch - Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

This guy was a student of St. John. If HE didn’t understand the teachings, he could have (would have, IMO) asked John to clarify.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I respectfully disagree and am certain God has not “duped” me.

Nobody said that God duped you.
And yet, it apears that you have been duped.

 

[Nicea325]

As far as consubstantiation/transubstantiion, it’s a rather fine point and, while there are some errors at the logical end of the con- issue, it’s probably not something that is required to be understood by laypeople.

However, I’ll let a great Early Church Father give HIS opinion on the “symbolic ordinance” belief:

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Ignatius of Antioch - Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

This guy was a student of St. John. If HE didn’t understand the teachings, he could have (would have, IMO) asked John to clarify.

How others can even conceive that Ignatius meant a symbolic ordinance is simply adding something foreign to the text and clear teaching of Christ. It is crystal clear Igantius meant it was literal, not symbolic.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by edkw55
I respectfully disagree and am certain God has not “duped” me.

You are right, God has not duped you because He never once mentions or teaches the Bible is the highest authority. In conclusion, you have been duped by men who invented a false belief.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

You are right.The Bible nowhere states that it is the only authoritative guide for faith and practice. However, we know that the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative.

No, it does not.

St. Peter declares that St. Paul’s writings are scriptural, and St. Paul tells Timothy that the Old Testament Scripture is theopneustos (God-breathed) but that’s about it.

Outside the Church, we don’t know exactly what “scriptures” St. Paul was referring to.

That being the case all traditions, doctrines, and practices, whether Protestant or Roman Catholic, must be tested against what God has revealed in the Bible. Until someone proves to me another authority equal to the Bible I remain Protestant.

The Church, and NOT the Bible, is the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth. According to the Bible.

So, IF you believe the Bible, you have to believe the Church. If you don’t believe the Church, then you’re not following the Bible.