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josie_L
Guest
It doesn’t sound like he’s on the fence, i.e., he’s stating he’s Protestant and believes in Sola Scriptura.
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
Who told you that you were proselytizing?
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benhur
Guest
umm,councils ,even popes or anybody or anything is authoritative when they are right biblically speaking .The first councils were very biblical. That is Nicea was very authoritative cause they were scriptural.
B
benhur
Guest
B
benhur
Guest
An old philosopher said we are never more than halfway there. That is, however long your path is before you, there is always a halfway point. Granted those half points change but only to create a new halfway point…Of course we are getting closer but…
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josie_L
Guest
No, Nicea was authoritative because Christ’s Church, i.e., the Catholic Church (pillar of truth), which guards and protects the deposit of faith, which includes Scripture and Sacred Tradition (which is one and the same throughout the whole) declared it such through the Holy Spirit which forever guides her.
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benhur
Guest
That is right, and a SS advocate believes in church and tradition.
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josie_L
Guest
Yes, SS advocates believe in their version of church and tradition (not sacred Tradition).
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nmgauss
Guest
A question that has been on my mind is exactly when was the Catholic Church officially established. Some people say that Jesus established it before his crucifixion. Others say that the church was established at Pentecost. Still others bring up that St. Peter did not build his church on the rock in Rome until AD 45, some 12-13 years after the crucifixion.
Even so, nobody knew for sure what to teach.
At first, Christians continued to worship alongside Jewish believers, which historians refer to as Jewish Christianity, but within twenty years of Jesus’s death, Sunday was being regarded as the primary day of worship.[16] As preachers such as Paul of Tarsus began converting Gentiles, Christianity began growing away from Jewish practices[11] to establish itself as a separate religion,[17] though the issue of Paul of Tarsus and Judaism is still debated today. To resolve doctrinal differences among the competing factions within the Church, in or around the year 50, the apostles convened the first Church council, the Council of Jerusalem. This council affirmed that Gentiles could become Christians without adopting all of the Mosaic Law.[18] Growing tensions soon led to a starker separation that was virtually complete by the time Christians refused to join in the Bar Khokba Jewish revolt of 132,[19] however some groups of Christians retained elements of Jewish practice.[20]
The early Christian Church was very loosely organized, resulting in diverse interpretations of Christian beliefs.[21] In part to ensure a greater consistency in their teachings, by the end of the 2nd century Christian communities had evolved a more structured hierarchy, with a central bishop having authority over the clergy in his city,[22] leading to the development of the Metropolitan bishop. The organization of the Church began to mimic that of the Empire; bishops in politically important cities exerted greater authority over bishops in nearby cities.[23] The churches in Antioch, Alexandria, and Rome held the highest positions.[24] Beginning in the 2nd century, bishops often congregated in regional synods to resolve doctrinal and policy issues.[18] Duffy claims that by the 3rd century, the bishop of Rome began to act as a court of appeals for problems that other bishops could not resolve.[25]
Doctrine was further refined by a series of influential theologians and teachers, known collectively as the Church Fathers.[26] From the year 100 onward, proto-orthodox teachers like Ignatius of Antioch and Irenaeus defined Catholic teaching in stark opposition to other things, such as Gnosticism.[27] In the first few centuries of its existence, the Church formed its teachings and traditions into a systematic whole under the influence of theological apologists such as Pope Clement I, Justin Martyr and Augustine of Hippo
Thus when the church first started out, the apostles spread the word but it was not uniform. Then St. Paul began writing his famous epistles that began to change Catholic doctrine. Then when the Council of Jerusalem established the Apostolic Creed, there was more uniformity introduced. By the time Augustine of Hippo came along, the church had changed considerably from its beginnings.
So when can we say that the Catholic Church as we know it today was established?
Even so, nobody knew for sure what to teach.
At first, Christians continued to worship alongside Jewish believers, which historians refer to as Jewish Christianity, but within twenty years of Jesus’s death, Sunday was being regarded as the primary day of worship.[16] As preachers such as Paul of Tarsus began converting Gentiles, Christianity began growing away from Jewish practices[11] to establish itself as a separate religion,[17] though the issue of Paul of Tarsus and Judaism is still debated today. To resolve doctrinal differences among the competing factions within the Church, in or around the year 50, the apostles convened the first Church council, the Council of Jerusalem. This council affirmed that Gentiles could become Christians without adopting all of the Mosaic Law.[18] Growing tensions soon led to a starker separation that was virtually complete by the time Christians refused to join in the Bar Khokba Jewish revolt of 132,[19] however some groups of Christians retained elements of Jewish practice.[20]
The early Christian Church was very loosely organized, resulting in diverse interpretations of Christian beliefs.[21] In part to ensure a greater consistency in their teachings, by the end of the 2nd century Christian communities had evolved a more structured hierarchy, with a central bishop having authority over the clergy in his city,[22] leading to the development of the Metropolitan bishop. The organization of the Church began to mimic that of the Empire; bishops in politically important cities exerted greater authority over bishops in nearby cities.[23] The churches in Antioch, Alexandria, and Rome held the highest positions.[24] Beginning in the 2nd century, bishops often congregated in regional synods to resolve doctrinal and policy issues.[18] Duffy claims that by the 3rd century, the bishop of Rome began to act as a court of appeals for problems that other bishops could not resolve.[25]
Doctrine was further refined by a series of influential theologians and teachers, known collectively as the Church Fathers.[26] From the year 100 onward, proto-orthodox teachers like Ignatius of Antioch and Irenaeus defined Catholic teaching in stark opposition to other things, such as Gnosticism.[27] In the first few centuries of its existence, the Church formed its teachings and traditions into a systematic whole under the influence of theological apologists such as Pope Clement I, Justin Martyr and Augustine of Hippo
Thus when the church first started out, the apostles spread the word but it was not uniform. Then St. Paul began writing his famous epistles that began to change Catholic doctrine. Then when the Council of Jerusalem established the Apostolic Creed, there was more uniformity introduced. By the time Augustine of Hippo came along, the church had changed considerably from its beginnings.
So when can we say that the Catholic Church as we know it today was established?
J
JustaServant
Guest
Did you send edkw55 a message telling him he was proselytizing?
J
JustaServant
Guest
Haven’t really been involved in this debate Ben, I have to be in the mood for it.
Maybe it’s age, maybe it’s the heart surgery I had last year, but the more time goes on, the more I realize I’ve barely left the starting gate.
“Certainty” is an affliction of youth.
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
SS is a broken system, with that I agree. But there are differences in how various Protestant denominations view it. How a Lutheran uses SS is world’s apart from how the fundamentalist uses it.
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josie_L
Guest
Yes, I’m aware of that, but it’s still a version of their understanding of what tradition and church is.
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josie_L
Guest
NO I DID NOT.
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josie_L
Guest
I’m not sure where you got your information from, but the apostles were very concerned with uniformity, i.e., they held councils to ensure that the theology/practices would remain the same (and this within years of Jesus’s death), and clearly the Bible (in acts) shows Peter as being the leader of this group (if there’s a leader than there’s structure), whose visions from Heaven led the Church to further establish uniformity, i.e., accept/preach to the gentiles . . . . etc.
As to when the CC began, that would be the day of Pentecost, i.e., when the Holy Spirit fell upon the 72 disciples and they in turned were gifted with the ability to speak in various tongues, marking the moment the UNIVERSAL/CATHOLIC church was born.
p.s. Have you ever heard of the Didache, i.e., the teaching of the twelve which is a first century document/literature, that imparts all the essential teachings of the twelve apostles, all in conformity and uniformity, i.e., this is what they all taught?
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josie_L
Guest
St. Irenaeus of Lyons (3rd century) spoke of the ONE faith in the ONE Church scattered throughout the world, i.e., it is universal or throughout the whole, so therefore, it is CATHOLIC as St. Ignatius declared:
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PJM
Guest
Some clairification seems necessary here.
- We are speaking of the method GOD choose to pass on His only desired, wnated and taught faith beliefs. Certainly God is going to do as he promised:
Matthew 28: 16-20 “And the eleven disciples [READ as Apostles Mt. 10:1-3] went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying:All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: “commanded here means: mandated, Ordained, taught & commanded] and behold** I am with you all days,** even to the consummation of the world.”
When Christ freely Choose to give Peter [and through Him; todays Catholic Church ALL of the key’s to heaven; He Christ obligated Himself to also give them the Power and authority they necessarily would need to actually grow the church [singular], and fulfill all that Chirst entrusted to them. Thus all salvation must, and does flow, mysteriously at times; through the CC.
God Bless you,
Patrick
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JustaServant
Guest
Well that’s good to hear, because whoever did just drove him further away. His posting history reveals a person confused, not “certain”.NO I DID NOT.
Deciding who is proselytizing and what his religion should display is a moderator’s job.
Shame we have people like that here.
Thanks for clearing that up.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Pentecost.
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josie_L
Guest
Post #901:
And there are other posts like this that I responded to, wherein he identifies himself as a Protestant, so nobody drove him away.
p.s. I requested that he change his religious affiliation because of this, i.e., because of the confusion that it would cause if he were to venture on other forums and threads.
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