The historicity of the Church

[spina1953]

I’m not sure what you mean by, “sometime before the end of the first Century.” Antioch would have likely been in the mid to late 30’s or perhaps the early 40’s. Definitely before anyone wrote a letter to the Church. If by sometime before the end you mean the middle first Century then you would be correct, but we were also called Christians well before that.

Hi Dronald: Thanks for your response. It is my understanding from reading early Church history that Christians were first called Christians at Antioch. When that happened it not really known; it could have as you say in the mid 30’s AD or 40’s AD. That being said, it seems that we first hear of Christians being called Christians by St. Ignatius of Antioch, so they were being called Christians before the end of the first century. It seems to be very possible. There is no sure way of actually knowing for sure, but the followers of Jesus were not called Christians in the very beginning right after Pentecost and maybe some years after that, but as you said it might have been sometime in the late 30’s or early 40’s.

 

[dronald]

Yes, as we hold no doctrines that contradict Scripture.

Actually, he has a point though; that is if I say “We make scripture the rule and norm of every doctrine” most Catholics would object to that statement. Remember, Sola Scriptura says Scripture is the highest authority.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

There is a Sola Scriptura thread already going. Let’s keep it for that thread please, that includes myself.

Historicity of the Church. Let’s stay on subject.

 

[JamesTheJust]

There is a Sola Scriptura thread already going. Let’s keep it for that thread please, that includes myself.

Historicity of the Church. Let’s stay on subject.

Will do.

 

[joe371]

House Harkonnen;11846848]Many deny clear teachings of scripture. Also, the definition can be normed by scripture, so its consistent with the practice of sola Scriptura. I know of no denomination that practices SS that disagrees that the church should have councils to determine doctrine.

OK. What does one do when these final arbiters (different church councils) disagree with one another? Nothing. Truth regarding the doctrines that divide remain unknowable without one church being guided by God. The alternatives: God guides these various churches to teaching different things…Or, every church council teaches fallibly, something I think you believe, based on your other posts?

The CC doesn’t have the authority to define any doctrine not normed by scripture. That’s why it was necessary to remove the unscriptural dogmas and doctrines, or at least hold them to be non binding, such as the Assumption etc.

You said: “I know of no denomination that practices SS that disagrees that the church should have councils to determine doctrine.” Magisterium simply means teaching office of a church. Are these councils (found in every sola scriptura church, according to you) the magisterial office aka the teaching office where all disputes are settled and finalized?

The CC (teaching office) did have the authority, (still does in my humble opinion) as can be clearly seen in history, to define doctrine based on sacred scripture and sacred tradition. If they lost it, when did they lose it? If they lost it then who possesses it now?

 

[joe371]

If I showed you some ECFS on scripture being the highest authority, would you be interested?

Yes. And if I show you that those same ECFs embraced not only sacred tradition but the CC as the final authoritative arbiter to resolve doctrinal differences, would you be interested?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Yes. And if I show you that those same ECFs embraced not only sacred tradition but the CC as the final authoritative arbiter to resolve doctrinal differences, would you be interested?

Indeed, Joe!

No “Sola” to be found there.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

OK. What does one do when these final arbiters (different church councils) disagree with one another? Nothing. Truth regarding the doctrines that divide remain unknowable without one church being guided by God. The alternatives: God guides these various churches to teaching different things…Or, every church council teaches fallibly, something I think you believe, based on your other posts?

You said: “I know of no denomination that practices SS that disagrees that the church should have councils to determine doctrine.” Magisterium simply means teaching office of a church. Are these councils (found in every sola scriptura church, according to you) the magisterial office aka the teaching office where all disputes are settled and finalized?

The CC (teaching office) did have the authority, (still does in my humble opinion) as can be clearly seen in history, to define doctrine based on sacred scripture and sacred tradition. If they lost it, when did they lose it? If they lost it then who possesses it now?

Great follow up questions!!!

 

[House_Harkonnen]

OK. What does one do when these final arbiters (different church councils) disagree with one another? Nothing. Truth regarding the doctrines that divide remain unknowable without one church being guided by God. The alternatives: God guides these various churches to teaching different things…Or, every church council teaches fallibly, something I think you believe, based on your other posts?

You said: “I know of no denomination that practices SS that disagrees that the church should have councils to determine doctrine.” Magisterium simply means teaching office of a church. Are these councils (found in every sola scriptura church, according to you) the magisterial office aka the teaching office where all disputes are settled and finalized?

The CC (teaching office) did have the authority, (still does in my humble opinion) as can be clearly seen in history, to define doctrine based on sacred scripture and sacred tradition. If they lost it, when did they lose it? If they lost it then who possesses it now?

What does one do when these final arbiters (different church councils) disagree with one another?

I disagree that a church council or synod is a final arbiter of anything.

Truth regarding the doctrines that divide remain unknowable without one church being guided by God.

No. Truth is knowable because of Gods word. No need for a pope or magisterium. Those things can certainly be helpful, as well as synods and councils but they can and do err. But the final authority is scripture, which does not err.

The alternatives: God guides these various churches to teaching different things…Or, every church council teaches fallibly, something I think you believe, based on your other posts?

Yes. All church councils no synods are fallible.

You said: “I know of no denomination that practices SS that disagrees that the church should have councils to determine doctrine.” Magisterium simply means teaching office of a church. Are these councils (found in every sola scriptura church, according to you) the magisterial office aka the teaching office where all disputes are settled and finalized?

No. They can be useful but the final authority is always scripture. If a council declares something against scripture, scripture has to win.

The CC (teaching office) did have the authority, (still does in my humble opinion) as can be clearly seen in history, to define doctrine based on sacred scripture and sacred tradition.

I disagree that history shows any infallible teaching authority of any church or denomination. Nor can any denomination or church define doctrine outside of scripture. Although like I said such can be useful and are often correct. I do believe history shows that scripture is the final authority.

If they lost it, when did they lose it? If they lost it then who possesses it now?

They never had it, as such an infallible authority doesn’t exist in a church or denomination but rather scripture.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I disagree that a church council or synod is a final arbiter of anything.

You can disagree all you want but they are. Starting with the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 and following up to now. They have effectively declared the final arbitration in regards to heresies against the Christian Faith.

No. Truth is knowable because of Gods word. No need for a pope or magisterium. Those things can certainly be helpful, as well as synods and councils but they can and do err. But the final authority is scripture, which does not err.

Truth is knowable through the Church and Scriptures themselves tell you so:
[bibledrb]1 Timothy 3:15[/bibledrb]

Yes. All church councils no synods are fallible.

You have to show us where they are wrong. And how they have not made a single infallible declaration.

No. They can be useful but the final authority is always scripture. If a council declares something against scripture, scripture has to win.

The councils and the Church tells us what are Scriptures. If you think a council has declared something against Scriptures - you either misunderstand the council or scripture or both.

BTW - this is a highly arrogant stance.

I disagree that history shows any infallible teaching authority of any church or denomination. Nor can any denomination or church define doctrine outside of scripture. Although like I said such can be useful and are often correct. I do believe history shows that scripture is the final authority.

You can believe that according to history the Bible fell out of the sky, but it doesn’t make it so .

They never had it, as such an infallible authority doesn’t exist in a church or denomination but rather scripture.

So the Church was fallible when declaring what we are to consider as Scriptures?

House, you are making the mistake of separating Scriptures from the Church and the Teaching Office of the Church.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

You can disagree all you want but they are. Starting with the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 and following up to now. They have effectively declared the final arbitration in regards to heresies against the Christian Faith.

Truth is knowable through the Church and Scriptures themselves tell you so:
[bibledrb]1 Timothy 3:15[/bibledrb]

You have to show us where they are wrong. And how they have not made a single infallible declaration.

The councils and the Church tells us what are Scriptures. If you think a council has declared something against Scriptures - you either misunderstand the council or scripture or both.

BTW - this is a highly arrogant stance.

You can believe that according to history the Bible fell out of the sky, but it doesn’t make it so .

So the Church was fallible when declaring what we are to consider as Scriptures?

House, you are making the mistake of separating Scriptures from the Church and the Teaching Office of the Church.

You can disagree all you want but they are. Starting with the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 and following up to now. They have effectively declared the final arbitration in regards to heresies against the Christian Faith.

James and all the apostles at the council used scripture to norm their doctrine. They were using Sola Scriptura.

Truth is knowable through the Church and Scriptures themselves tell you so:

I agree. I hold the church to be a source of truth.

You have to show us where they are wrong. And how they have not made a single infallible declaration.

There have been over 40 errant councils in the history of the church. Even so, ecumenical councils have erred as well, such as Canon 28 of Chalcedon.

The councils and the Church tells us what are Scriptures. If you think a council has declared something against Scriptures - you either misunderstand the council or scripture or both

Fine. But Christians knew what were scriptures long before there was any council declaring them so. And even the Catholic Church have declared that ecumenical councils have erred, such as Canon 28 of Chalcedon, and when 3rd Constantinople declared Honorius a heretic, etc.

BTW - this is a highly arrogant stance.

How so?

You can believe that according to history the Bible fell out of the sky, but it doesn’t make it so .

I don’t believe that, and that’s a ridiculous charicature of my position.

So the Church was fallible when declaring what we are to consider as Scriptures?

Absolutely, in fact they got it wrong and declared some uninspired books to be inspired.

House, you are making the mistake of separating Scriptures from the Church and the Teaching Office of the Church.

No. I am simply doing what Gregory of Nyssa advised, making scripture the rule and norm of every doctrine.

 

[Nicea325]

No. “We make scripture the rule and norm of every doctrine”. Can you confess that as a Catholic? This is precisely what Luther and Calvin proposed to do. That was consistent with Gregory of Nyssa.

2 Timothy 3:16.

Not at all.

No. He was writing in the context of a heresy, Arianism IIRC. The see of Rome was teaching orthodoxy at that point. He certainly didn’t believe that the Roman pope had special universal jurisdiction in perpetuity for eternity over every other bishop, nor infallibility, that would take a few more hundred years to develop.

Sorry. But 2 Tim 3:16 NEVER states Scripture is the highest authority. Furthermore,St.Paul did not say those words in defense of SS.

BTW: How can 2 Tim 3:16 support Scripture as the highest authority when St.Paul himself never once mentions a NT canon? Sorry…but once again SS is debunked!

 

[joe371]

House Harkonnen;11850366]I disagree that a church council or synod is a final arbiter of anything.

OK. Who or what is the final arbiter today, just as the CC was in the early centuries when heresies were rearing their ugly head? BTW, thank God for the CC back then! Phew…Please do not suggest to me the bible, for the bible (when people share opposing doctrinal beliefs) cannot settle those doctrinal disputes that continue to divide Christianity? People reach an impasse and go their separate ways i.e. nothing gets resolved as it did when the CC was the final arbiter long ago. This is an important question for Christianity, if doctrinal truth matters, and it does!

 

[House_Harkonnen]

OK. Who or what is the final arbiter today, just as the CC was in the early centuries when heresies were rearing their ugly head? BTW, thank God for the CC back then! Phew…Please do not suggest to me the bible, for the bible (when people share opposing doctrinal beliefs) cannot settle those doctrinal disputes that continue to divide Christianity? People reach an impasse and go their separate ways i.e. nothing gets resolved as it did when the CC was the final arbiter long ago. This is an important question for Christianity, if doctrinal truth matters, and it does!

Scripture is always the final authority.

 

[Nicea325]

Many deny clear teachings of scripture. Also, the definition can be normed by scripture, so its consistent with the practice of sola Scriptura. I know of no denomination that practices SS that disagrees that the church should have councils to determine doctrine.

The CC doesn’t have the authority to define any doctrine not normed by scripture. That’s why it was necessary to remove the unscriptural dogmas and doctrines, or at least hold them to be non binding, such as the Assumption etc.

Really? Chapter and verse for the NT canon? Where does Scripture define it?

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Really? Chapter and verse for the NT canon? Where does Scripture define it?

The canon is not a doctrine.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Sorry. But 2 Tim 3:16 NEVER states Scripture is the highest authority. Furthermore,St.Paul did not say those words in defense of SS.

BTW: How can 2 Tim 3:16 support Scripture as the highest authority when St.Paul himself never once mentions a NT canon? Sorry…but once again SS is debunked!

It says that with scripture I can be complete, and fully equipped for every good work. Teaching correct doctrine is a good work.

How much more equipped can I be than fully?

 

[Nicea325]

The canon is not a doctrine.

Are you sure? Then name ONE Christian church with a larger NT canon?

I am still waiting for the verse:

Scripture is the highest authority.

You can forget about 2 Tim 3:16. That is the most twisted verse by so many non-Catholics.

 

[Nicea325]

It says that with scripture I can be complete, and fully equipped for every good work. Teaching correct doctrine is a good work.

How much more equipped can I be than fully?

Really? What about the scores of the folks who NEVER read a single word from Scripture? According to your rule, they are NOT equipped. One more time, SS is false!

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Really? What about the scores of the folks who NEVER read a single word from Scripture? According to your rule, they are NOT equipped. One more time, SS is false!

Who are you talking about?