B
benhur
Guest
Really, semantics of whether SS is called to “judge” or to bear “witness” to the truth ? One way to debunk is to redefine.
- Status
B
benhur
Guest
Does the Church declare infallibility of councils also ? Do councils declare the infallibility of the Church and therefore perfect historicity.
J
joe371
Guest
J
joe371
Guest
Jesus said “I will build my church…” That’s just one church established by God. Benhur, if I establish a church tomorrow and call my new church JD ministries, should I be able to add that as one of the churches established by Jesus?
D
dronald
Guest
Don’t Catholics believe we’re in that same Church anyways? Just in some sort of broken way?
Regardless, we believe we’re all in that Church.
J
JamesTheJust
Guest
No. We believe that those invincibly ignorant of the Divine Truth of the Church are united to the Church, but in an imperfect way. That’s a far cry from “All Protestants are members of the Church.”
D
dronald
Guest
So would you say that some Protestants are members of the Church? Or no Protestants are members of the Church?
Are EO’s and OO’s members of the Catholic Church?
P
Per_Crucem
Guest
The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter. Those who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. With the Orthodox churches, this communion is so profound that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist. (CCC 838)
While it wouldn’t mean all Protestants, it would include all Protestants validly baptized.
J
JamesTheJust
Guest
One is not invincibly ignorant based on his denomination, but rather his circumstances. One is is invincibly ignorant when he, due to factors completely out of his control and by no fault of his own, is unaware of the Truth of the Catholic Faith. So sure, I reckon that there are invincibly ignorant Protestants, as well as invincibly ignorant EOs and OOs.
J
JamesTheJust
Guest
Communion is an entirely different concept.
P
Per_Crucem
Guest
What is your definition of the differences between the two? Of course, we’re both in agreement that Protestants wouldn’t be “members” in the sense that Catholics are “members.”
J
JamesTheJust
Guest
Membership is what saves.
P
Per_Crucem
Guest
So are Protestants not saved, in your view? Just curious, not accusatory.
D
dronald
Guest
So the “invincibly ignorant” are a part of the Church or not?
J
joe371
Guest
If he/she is invincibly ignorant then how can he/she belong to the church?
J
joe371
Guest
Only God officially knows who is saved, whether we are talking about protestants, Catholics or otherwise.
818 "However,** one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities** [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the ** Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .** . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 ** are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church:** "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”
J
joe371
Guest
:yup: CCC - 817 - 821. Fullness of truth found in Jesus’ CC…
Benhur, if I establish a church tomorrow and call my new church JD ministries, should I be able to add that as one of the churches established by Jesus?
J
JamesTheJust
Guest
Of course not! Though we cannot know who will be saved in the end, invincible ignorance make one a member of the Church, but in an invisible and imperfect way.
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
James covering the CCC answered this question excellently.
Let’s not look at belonging and communion as membership. After all, it is not a club
.Let’s look at it at how the Church communion has operated throughout history (In a very compressed manner).
- What is normally the first step to enter into the Church and the Christian life? Baptism.
- How many Christian baptisms there are? One.
- How many Christian faiths there are? One.
- How many bodies (Church) of Christ there are? One.
- How many Christian communions there are? Many.
- What is this lack of communion doing? Breaking/Separating the body (Church) of Christ.
Acts 2:42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. 44 And all who believed were together and had all things in common; 45 and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need. 46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
In the breaking of the bread (communion–Eucharist–) we affirm together one faith, a common belief and a common life in Christ.
Baptism doesn’t guarantee being in communion with the Church. If your actions are the fruit of sin (dissension for example) and not of the spirit you are then negating the graces given to you from baptism.
Galatians 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us have no self-conceit, no provoking of one another, no envy of one another.
If in your actions, the works of the flesh are manifest and you purposefully work against the Church, your actions separate you from the Church (See some of the heretics like Arius, Nestorius who were in communion of the Church). In the same manner, if you come to the knowledge of the truth about the Church and ignore it or deny it - you are placing yourself outside the Church in knowledge of such action. Therefore invisible ignorance does not apply.
So instead of membership, see it as communion.
Even Justin Martyr (2nd century) is clear on communion:
], **of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. **For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.
Since there is one baptism and this one baptism has been handed down as a Sacrament and Command from Christ to His Apostles/Church and the Apostles have taught this one baptism to their disciples in the One Church - there can only be one Christian baptism - which unites us people into the washing for the remission of sins and unto regeneration into a life of Christ.
From Dominus Iesus:
(Emphasis mine)
Again, I’d stay away from using membership - after all there is no membership card to carry that I know of
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
Well, in a way, that is precisely the problem of SS. It’s like a mutating virus that changes definitions and molds to fit the individual or group of individuals. It’s a really anarchistic principle.
How can it be singularly approached when it has not singularity?
:banghead:I need to stay on topic:banghead:
- Status