The historicity of the Church

[edkw55]

I did Ed, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on what I perceive as a patronizing tone.

For more than 10 years I did. The Solas, the different Confessions, different books from Protestantism and not only books but actual conversations with Pastor and Professors from different denominations.

I am not the one saying that Apostolic Succession can’t be proven. I’m not the one saying Scriptures is the highest authority.

I am the one saying that the Church has always been present since Christ and that the Church has always had succession. One Church.

I am the one challenging your comments. I have answered questions, whereas mine remain unanswered.

So let’s stay in subject, please.

Whether I decide to enter the Catholic Church or remain Protestant one thing I am nearly certain of…the Catholic doctrine of Apostolic Succession can not be proven.

 

[josie_L]

I agree completely. The CCC is an incredibly beautiful book…awesome!

I often wonder how many Catholics have even read through the CCC?

Ed

Hi Ed,

I just wanted to tell you that everything you find in the CCC is a compilation of Scripture, sacred Tradition, councils, church fathers, and encyclicals, so if you can appreciate it’s beauty than you are in essence confirming the Catholic faith that has been delineated in the last 2000 years.

God bless!

 

[josie_L]

Whether I decide to enter the Catholic Church or remain Protestant one thing I am nearly certain of…the Catholic doctrine of Apostolic Succession can not be proven.

I am nearly certain . . . . . it cannot be proven, i.e, just because you cannot “see” or understand it does not mean it cannot be proven.

Pray to God for clarity and understanding.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

As I understand it some Lutheran denominations accept the Catholic doctrine of Apostolic Succession and some don’t. I have no idea what the stats are. At one time I was a member of the Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod) and they don’t accept the Catholic doctrine of Apostolic Succession. But, like I said, I have no idea as far as stats.

Ed

I am also a former member of the LCMS and understand their position on apostolic succession within the historic framework of the early Church and the necessity to accept presbyter ordination during the Reformation in Germany. I believe nearly all Lutherans including European/ African/ North American now accept and follow apostolic succession.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Whether I decide to enter the Catholic Church or remain Protestant one thing I am nearly certain of…the Catholic doctrine of Apostolic Succession can not be proven.

Please define the “Catholic doctrine of AS” as you believe it to be.

Here’s my understanding. AS is not a “doctrine” but a practice based on Tradition, a sign of “church”-ness (there are doctrinal statements associated with the practice):
Christ gave the full sacramental authority of the Church to the Twelve Apostles in the sacrament of Holy Orders. By conferring the fullness of the sacrament of Holy Orders on the apostles, they were given the authority to confer the sacrament of Holy Orders on others, thus consecrating more bishops in a direct lineage that can trace its origin back to the Twelve Apostles and Christ. This direct succession of bishops from the apostles to the present day bishops is referred to as apostolic succession.

 

[edkw55]

Please define the “Catholic doctrine of AS” as you believe it to be.

Here’s my understanding. AS is not a “doctrine” but a practice based on Tradition, a sign of “church”-ness (there are doctrinal statements associated with the practice):
Christ gave the full sacramental authority of the Church to the Twelve Apostles in the sacrament of Holy Orders. By conferring the fullness of the sacrament of Holy Orders on the apostles, they were given the authority to confer the sacrament of Holy Orders on others, thus consecrating more bishops in a direct lineage that can trace its origin back to the Twelve Apostles and Christ. This direct succession of bishops from the apostles to the present day bishops is referred to as apostolic succession.

This is also my understanding of AS as it is taught by the Catholic Church.

 

[edkw55]

I am nearly certain . . . . . it cannot be proven, i.e, just because you cannot “see” or understand it does not mean it cannot be proven.

Pray to God for clarity and understanding.

I maintain the it cannot be proven and I must accept it as a matter of faith. For me to accept any Authority as being equal to the Authority of the Bible is a tough one.

Thanks,

Ed

 

[edkw55]

I am also a former member of the LCMS and understand their position on apostolic succession within the historic framework of the early Church and the necessity to accept presbyter ordination during the Reformation in Germany. I believe nearly all Lutherans including European/ African/ North American now accept and follow apostolic succession.

LCMS does not accept AS.

 

[edkw55]

Hi Ed,

I just wanted to tell you that everything you find in the CCC is a compilation of Scripture, sacred Tradition, councils, church fathers, and encyclicals, so if you can appreciate it’s beauty than you are in essence confirming the Catholic faith that has been delineated in the last 2000 years.

God bless!

Hi josie L,
That is a good point.
thanks…ed

 

[edkw55]

I appreciate all of you trying to help me on this journey. I feel like I am taking up way too much of your time. Maybe this is something I need to work through on my own.

Thanks everyone.

Ed

 

[sallybutler]

I maintain the it cannot be proven and I must accept it as a matter of faith. For me to accept any Authority as being equal to the Authority of the Bible is a tough one.

Thanks,

Ed

What would you accept as proof?

 

[edkw55]

It’s ironic that the one person in the world you would think I should be able to talk about this would be my wife who is a cradle Catholic but she doesn’t want to hear about it.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

It’s ironic that the one person in the world you would think I should be able to talk about this would be my wife who is a cradle Catholic but she doesn’t want to hear about it.

That makes it harder.

My wife was raised Protestant and in 2013, after I came back to the Catholic Church (2012), my whole family (we have 4 children) came to the Church as well. All of our 4 children were baptized, confirmed and received communion earlier this year. A big blessing.

It is not easy, my wife got annoyed with all the books and meetings (she went to about half of them with me), but she bore that cross with me, lol.

I pray her heart opens to your questions. Just keep in mind that we (Catholics) come in the some of the same flavors as Protestants.

Most of my Catholic friends worry themselves with praying and helping than with apologetics and theology. I am very thankful for them as they keep me grounded

 

[Isaiah45_9]

What would you accept as proof?

Very important question!

I can make all kinds of demands in a way that absolutely nothing can be proven.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I appreciate all of you trying to help me on this journey. I feel like I am taking up way too much of your time. Maybe this is something I need to work through on my own.

Thanks everyone.

Ed

You kidding!? We love to argue!!!

They will close the thread shortly anways as it has reached the 1,000 posts mark.

Maybe a follow up thread on AS

 

[PJM]

=edkw55;12054052]The One True Church established by Jesus Christ is the Roman Catholic Church.

True or False?

Let’s play make believe here, total fantasy land you must be crazy kinda stuff and, just for the sake of argument, say that the response to the above statement is “false” while still insisting that the Church truly did begin on the day of Pentecost and continues to exist to this very day. Any thoughts???

Ed

the answer Ed, my friend is YES But is was NOT known by that specific title AT THAT TIME:thumbsup: Same Church though.

God Bless,
Patrick

 

[benhur]

Lol.

He is better known as Antipope John XXIII.

Good. I thought maybe you were testing us to see if we are really reading. I was surprised I spotted it myself with a quick gleening over. P. S. Now I am LOL. Just reread your post and i see i missed the topic of schism and stuff so i did not read it well and failed the good read test . So much for being puffed up.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Good. I thought maybe you were testing us to see if we are really reading. I was surprised I spotted it myself with a quick gleening over. P. S. Now I am LOL. Just reread your post and i see i missed the topic of schism and stuff so i did not read it well and failed the good read test . So much for being puffed up.

LOL!

You are very perceptive! I used to teach software applications, man and that was some dry material. Of course, I knew I’d lose attention from some students. So in the middle of an explanation I used to start talking about dragons or goblins… lol… you’d be surprise how long I used to talk before someone would ask… hmmm what are you talking about? Good times!!!

Peace,

 

[josie_L]

I maintain the it cannot be proven and I must accept it as a matter of faith. For me to accept any Authority as being equal to the Authority of the Bible is a tough one.

Thanks,

Ed

What would happen to the Bible if there was no Church with the God-given authority to guard, defend and interpret it uniformly, moreover, what Bible would we have if it were not for the Holy Spirit guiding Christ’s Church through the authority of the magisterium (an authority that was divinely inspired much like the Word of God was)?

p.s. To trust in the Bible is to trust in the authority of the Church that put it together.

 

[spina1953]

I agree completely. The CCC is an incredibly beautiful book…awesome!

I often wonder how many Catholics have even read through the CCC?

Ed

Hi Ed: The CCC is a beautiful and awesome book, goes well with the Bible. I do not know how many Catholic’s have read the CCC, but it is a book every catholic should read. I will say also its a way also for Protestants to read if they really want to know what Catholic’s believe.