The Holy Fire Miracle

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Hi maybe you’ve heard about this one before but it is a very popular one amongst Orthodox circles. My question is assuming it is a true miracle (assuming) where does that leave the Catholic Church? Why can’t we obtain the fire and why does it fall on the date of Orthodox Easter? Thanks for any answers.
 
If you’re referring to the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem, I think that “miracle” was exploded (forgive the pun) many years ago. Wikipedia says:

Dobrokhotov and other critics, including Russian Orthodox researcher Nikolay Uspensky,[25] Dr. Aleksandr Musin of Sorbonne, and some Old Believers quote excerpts from the diaries of Bishop Porphyrius (Uspensky) (1804–1885),[26] which told that the clergy in Jerusalem knew that the Holy Fire was fraudulent. Porphyrius was a Russian Orthodox archimandrite who was sent on the official Church-related research mission to Jerusalem and other places (Egypt, Mount Athos). While in Jerusalem, he founded the Russian Mission there.

 
Why does the Catholic Church have incorrupt bodies of saints? Why did God perform the miracle of the sun at Fatima 100 years ago? Why did Mary appear on Juan Diego’s tilma? Why are the several well-tested Eucharistic miracles?

There are plenty of Catholic miracles, often directly testifying to distinctly Catholic beliefs.

Remember that, first of all.

But why shouldn’t the Orthodox have miracles? They are genuine apostolic churches. In one sense, they are part of the Catholic Church, just not in full union, since they lack communion with the See of Peter, the visible source of the church’s oneness.

Remember East and West gradually grew apart, but were once the same church. It’s not as if there was some point that God was like “Well, the division is too strong, so now I will cut the Orthodox completely off from the Church.” No, Orthodox have several, several true and good elements of the true faith. Essentially, everything they believe in practice is at one with Catholicism – except that they are not in communion with the Successor of Peter!

The Orthodox split was not like the Protestant split. The Orthodox originated with the true apostolic churches and apostolic traditions. But cultural and geographic differences (which facilitated the theological and political differences) caused the split. Nevertheless, they retain true apostolic succession. Basically, we are one in faith and sacraments, but not in government. But visible unity is still a goal, for Christ desired us to be one, and has left the role of Peter for the sake of the church’s unity.
 
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A couple years ago, I posed a question on CAF about the Holy Fire phenomenon. I wanted to know what people thought about it. My post was yanked lickety-split. Apparently, the topic is too contentious for some to handle.

My opinion is that it is a beautiful tradition, but there is the nagging concern that it is staged, which would make it a lie, actually. I am disturbed that the Orthodox Church would be a part of a charade. I’d like to believe that it is a true miracle, but I just can’t believe this one. A miracle on demand - I can’t buy it. We know it can be done by dipping candles into white phosphorus ahead of time.

I really am disturbed that this is probably a long-running charade. Let’s see how quickly this thread gets axed.
 
Why would the church have carried out this hoax for over 2000 years?!?! Is everything a hoax then?
 
The miraculous portion of this miracle is too easily forged to be a sign. This is not to say, however, that it isn’t one. Just that we can’t know very well that it is.
 
There are a lot of different traditional ways to start an Easter fire. In England in Anglo-Saxon days, it was customary at the cathedrals to start the Easter fire with “crystal” – ie, with sunlight through rock crystals, the same way you could start a fire with sunlight through a magnifying glass. St. Boniface wrote Pope Zachary about it at one point, and was surprised to find out that it wasn’t the custom in Rome.

Obviously, they’ve been starting the Easter fire in Jerusalem for a long time in a similar way to what is reported today, because we have references going back to the 3rd or 4th century. That was long before the Great Schism, so it has nothing to do with Catholic vs. Orthodox.

If it’s an annual miracle for Jerusalem’s church, then yay, God! It speaks to the holiness of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

If it’s a local wonder of nature, then yay, God! The created world is very beautiful.

But if it’s something that does have a natural explanation, keeping it secret is not necessarily fraudulent. Back when YMCA Indian Guides and Indian Princesses was a thing, there used to be a big annual firelighting ceremony in the fall. After some nondenominational prayers, there was a “secret” method of lighting the bonfire, which the dads knew about and which was kept secret from the daughters. (Although I was pretty sure I knew what the secret method was.) They weren’t seriously trying to pretend that they had firelighting powers, or that the Great Spirit was sending down fire direct from Heaven. It was a showy backup for some nice prayers, and a bit of fun display.

Shrug. Never going to be a patriarch of Jerusalem, so it’s not my problem.
 
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Someone has said, that it could be a forgery started by white phosphorus. Phosphorus was discovered in 1771, this miracle is much older.

This video is interesting, it does not even burn your face, they say temperature is around 30-40% of fire’s original heat. Video on YouTube is called “Orthodox Church - The Miracle of Holy Fire, Jerusalem 2017” It shows people putting fire on their face, it is from 2017.

Monophysite priests and Israeli police check the Orthodox Patriarch before he enters the Tomb of Christ. Armenian Monophysites there dislike Greek Orthodox monopoly over the Lord’s Tomb, they would love to disprove and shame Greeks there before the whole world.
 
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No matter what happens, and where, and to whom, it leaves the Catholic Church exactly where she is: the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of mankind. All the rest is noise, some of which is intended to cause doubt.
 
As others have said, why shouldn’t the Orthodox have miracles? From a Catholic perspective, they have the far greater miracle of the Eucharist…
I have relatives who converted from Protestantism to Orthodoxy (as I converted from Protestantism to Catholicism). They know from first hand witnesses that their local parish in Edmonton, Alberta experienced a miraculous icon (a common miracle in the East…icons that pour fourth supernatural holy oil with no natural explanation).
 
Ioana said:
Hi maybe you’ve heard about this one before but it is a very popular one amongst Orthodox circles. My question is assuming it is a true miracle (assuming) where does that leave the Catholic Church?
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Still the One, True, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Why would anything change? Have you ever heard that the Holy Spirit blows where it will? Miracles even occur amongst the Protestants.
Why can’t we obtain the fire
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Hm? If it’s for sale, I’d say that’s a sign of this not being a true sign.
and why does it fall on the date of Orthodox Easter?
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Because that’s when the Patriarch enters the Sepulchre, apparently.
Thanks for any answers.
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Another thing. They say that this fire is shared with the spectators when the Patriarch exits the site. Apparently, the fire loses it’s original attributes. Because the Patriarch says that the fire “doesn’t burn”. He says that his beard won’t burn or catch fire when it touches the fire. That would make it difficult to share with the spectators, wouldn’t it?

But maybe I’m misunderstanding the miraculous nature of the fire.
A fire is then miraculously enkindled by the Holy Spirit - supposedly the power of the resurrection - and is shared rapidly throughout the Church and all those who are waiting outside.
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In the Patriarch’s own words:

The light does not burn I have never had my beard burnt in all the sixteen years I have been Patriarch in Jerusalem and have received the Holy Fire.
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Profete said:
Someone has said, that it could be a forgery started by white phosphorus. Phosphorus was discovered in 1771, this miracle is much older.
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Wikipedia:
…Kalopoulos also points out that chemical reactions of this nature were well known in ancient times, quoting Strabo, who states: “In Babylon there are two kinds of naphtha springs, a white and a black. The white naphtha is the one that ignites with fire.” (Strabon Geographica 16.1.15.1-24) He further states that phosphorus was used by Chaldean magicians in the early fifth century BC, and by the ancient Greeks, in a way similar to its supposed use today by the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem.
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The miracle as it appears today is not the same as it was a thousand years ago. Read the ancient descriptions and you’ll see that the descriptions vary drastically.

As for the fire not burning, that is simple thermodynamics and can be done with any fire. I do it in campfires as a trick to amuse the kids. For a fire to burn it requires time to apply the heat to the body. Movement will change the area of heat and prevent burning.

As for the Oriental Orthodox Patriarchs, the Armenian Patriarch has said it is done with a lighter in the tomb. 🙂
 
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“While i pray, sometimes at once, sometimes after some time, from the middle of the stone on which Jesus’s body lay, some strange light starts originating, mostly it is bluish, but the color can change. It can not be described with human words. The light is pouring from the middle of the stone, just like the fog is arising above the lake. It looks like the stone is covered with wet cloud. It is un-created light, wondrous, graceful, the gift from the Lord.”

Orthodox Patriarch Diodorus I of Jerusalem describes the emerging of the Holy Fire.
 
There is actually recorded event, during the Ottoman occupation, Armenians bribed the Turks to keep the Orthodox Patriarch outside the tomb, while the Armenian Patriarch entered the tomb and prayed there for hours and nothing happened. Then the holy came down on the candles of the Orthodox Patriarch who was forcefully kept outside the church. Since then Armenians are plotting against the authority of this miracle for centuries.
 
The event isn’t recorded by the Turks nor the Armenians. It is only attested to by the Greek Orthodox.
 
And yet no one but Diodorus has ever made such claims, not even previous Patriarchs, and witnesses have seen the Greek Patriarch light the flame with a lighter in modern times.
 
Well God has made His miracles “modest”, so jealous Armenians would not be forced to believe in them.
 
Except that there is nothing modest about the claims of the Jerusalem Patriarchate when it comes to the Holy Fire. You are also wrong about the Armenians, as their Patriarch participates in the ceremony of the Holy Fire annually alongside the Greek one, and it is a point of pilgrimage for them. The difference is that they don’t claim some miracle that nobody but the Greek Patriarch actually sees, and don’t make false claims like the fire having special properties.
 
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Why would they take part in something that is fake? Armenians are just jelly. I suggest you watch YouTube video that i have already named in my first post here.
 
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