The Holy Grail

[NewEnglandPriest]

Why do we Liturgically celebrate it if its optional belief? What happened to lex orandi, lex credendi?

We are required to believe that Jesus died on an actual cross. We are not required to believe that a particular finding is itself the actual cross that Jesus died upon. It is not part of the deposit of faith nor necessary for salvation.
The Mass prayers for the feast day make no reference to required belief in the historical accuracy of St. Helen’s findings…

 

[Joe_5859]

The grail belonged to the man that owned the house not anyone else.

Where in scripture does it say the grail belonged to the owner of the place they celebrated the Passover? Where in scripture did it say it was left there?

Doesn’t a man who owns a house also own cups to drink out of? And aren’t those cups his belongings and remain in his house after the guests leave?

So in other words, you have no basis for this besides the fact that it is your own speculative opinion.

I’m glad we cleared that up.

 

[puzzleannie]

Hey everyone, I have a question…
Do any of you have any imformtion about the Holy Grail.
It

in legend, particularly medieval legend around the Arthurian saga and French romance and chivalry, the term refers to the chalice used by Christ at the last supper, which is mentioned once in scripture about that event. The Church has no teaching whatever about it outside that scripture.

All else is myth, legend and romantic fabrication.

When Helen, the mother of Constantine who was Christian launched her search for holy places of early Christendom, as she was now free to do when the Roman persecution ended under the reign of her son, and because she had the wealth to do so, she also searched for relics such as the true cross, the chalice, the shroud etc. The places she found were well attested in Christian tradition and fairly easy to document, so are most likely authentic, and she commissioned churches to be built to mark those sites as places of pilgrimage and veneration of the faithful, and those locations have remained holy sites even under Muslim domination, so we can be fairly certain the sites the modern Church holds as sacred in the holy land are indeed in the right locations.

The artifacts are more problematic, since they require provenance, that is a continuous record of their origin, and their history of where and by whom they have been held ever since, something extremely difficult to establish in the case of artifacts from this period (my former profession is archives and museum so I have a bit of knowledge about it), and even less so for documents and ephemera than for material artifacts.

The legends and even more substantial Christian tradition are unfortunately not always consistent regarding these artifacts, and for relics in general from this period. Since it was almost a given that various dioceses and cities competed for possession of relics in order to make their churches and cathedrals more important, unfortunately some economic and patriotic agendas entered into the mix, making provenance even harder to document. In short, we don’t know what happened to the chalice or crater (paten or supper place) from the last supper. There is a tradition that the linen table covering became the Shroud, but we don’t have documentation for that, either.

 

[zab]

Personally, I have never had an interest in the Holy Grail. We have Jesus! The Holy Grail is just a second class relic. There can be some spiritual benefit in venerating holy relics and visiting places like the Holy Land where Jesus was born, lived his earthly life, died and was buried and rose from the dead. But venerating relics and places take second place to what or Who we have being made present to us each day at Holy Mass- Jesus Himself.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Mass prayers for the feast day make no reference to required belief in the historical accuracy of St. Helen’s findings…

Good point

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

Its a pious tradition but not a sacred tradition. Individuals are free to believe or not believe in the historical authenticity of the tradition of the true cross being found by Constantine’s mother Helen.

Can you tell me St. Helen knew that she had found the True Cross?

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

When the emperor’s mother says something its best for your health to believe her…

That’s funny. But luckily we’re no longer under the threat of the emperor.

So what you’re telling me is there is nothing that makes the piece of wood she found as valid evidence of the True Cross?

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

Is it also a pious tradition to believe that the places where Jesus died on Golgatha and where he was buried and rose from the dead are found within the Church of the Holy Sepulchre which has been a place of Christian pilgrimage since at least the 4th century? St. Helena is believed to have found the True Cross during the excavation of the site over which the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was built. It was also Constantine and Helena who were responsible for the building of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem over the site where Jesus was born.

You’re analogy is of two different things. In one instance you are talking about a place (an immoveable object) and on the other instance you are talking about a cross (a moveable object). The place is going to be more accurate than the relic.

It is a fact that the cross Jesus was crucified on was used over and over again for other crucifixions. There is no way to determine that any piece of wood excavated would be the True Cross. Perhaps she found a cross but that does not necessarily mean it is the cross. Just because she has faith that it is the cross does not make it so. That’s delusional. What is the evidence that she found the cross and not just some piece of wood?

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

Excuse me, but please do not attack me. I am simply stating that there are many theories out there and I heard of some of these theories on a program I’ve recently seen on tv. I simply said there are theories. I did not give an opinion of my own on the topic.

I’m not trying to attack you.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

Where in scripture did it say they borrowed cups?

You go into a man’s house, you eat at his table, you drink from his cup. Am I the only man on this forum that owns a house, a table and a cup.

You invite guests into your house what do you do? you give him a cup to drink.

You see you want me to believe that the disciples brought the cup with them when the man invited them into his house to eat the passover. That’s insane. The cup was the man’s property. It’s his house, his cup. Don’t you own a cup in your own house? Or do you have guests bring cups over?

 

[chris138]

There is a book “St. Laurence and The Holy Grail: The Story of the Holy Chalice of Valencia”

Here’s what the commentary at Amazon says:
Many scholars are convinced that The Holy Chalice of Valencia is the Holy Grail, celebrated in medieval legneds as it was venerated by monks in the secluded Monastery of San Juan de la Peña, built into a rocky outcropping of the Spanish Pyrenees. The tradition of Aragón has always insisted that the flaming agate cup of the Holy Chalice was sent to Spain by St. Laurence, the glorious Spaniard martyred on a gridiron during the Valerian persecution in Rome in 258 AD. Now there is new evidence: A sixth-century manuscript written in Latin by St. Donato, an Augustinian monk who founded a monastery in the area of Valencia, provides never-before-published details about Laurence, born in Valencia but destined for Italy, where he became treasurer and deacon of the Catholic Church under Pope Sixtus II. It explicitly mentions the details surrounding the transfer of the Holy Cup of the Last Supper to Spain. Janice Bennett acquaints the reader with the enthralling story of the Holy Chalice, the renowned relic that embarked from the Last Supper on an amazing pilgrimage that providentially ended in the Cathedral of Valencia, a miraculous odyssey that has been characterized by dnager, greed, martyrdom and fire from the very beginning. The author presents abundant evidence for authenticy, delving into many provocative topics, such as the importance of relics for early Christians, the difference between legend, tradition and history, and the veracity of St. Laurence’s death on the gridiron. It is a fascinating account that will dispel forever the notion that the famous relic was ever lost. The mythical Quest for the Holy Grail is now over.

I believe it is a Catholic author. I have not read the book myself…sounds interesting though.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

So in other words, you have no basis for this besides the fact that it is your own speculative opinion.

I’m glad we cleared that up.

Jesus ate the passover at a man’s house. Are you telling me that you don’t own any cups in your own home. I think you own a cup in your home. Is that speculation or is that a fact? It’s a fact isn’t it? you own a cup in your own home. A man invites you into his own home do you tell the guests to bring their own cups? Or does the man provide the cups for the supper out of his own? Is is that speculation or is that a fact? It’s a fact.

What insane world do you live in?

 

[Joe_5859]

You go into a man’s house, you eat at his table, you drink from his cup. Am I the only man on this forum that owns a house, a table and a cup.

You invite guests into your house what do you do? you give him a cup to drink.

You see you want me to believe that the disciples brought the cup with them when the man invited them into his house to eat the passover. That’s insane. The cup was the man’s property. It’s his house, his cup. Don’t you own a cup in your own house? Or do you have guests bring cups over?

You brought up the “fact” that your opinion was the truth and anything contrary was simply speculative opinion.

Simply because it is what makes sense in your head because of 20th century customs does not mean that you can say – with 100% certainty – that this is how it happened. You have been asking others for proof while providing none of your own.

FYI, when we have potlucks, we do bring some dishes with us.

 

[GEddie]

Come on, everybody, cool it b4 the mods shut this thing down.

The fact is, scripture tells us zero about His chalice. Interest in it began when the crusaders were in Israel and relics fetched a princely amount back in Europe, but it was almost certainly long-lost even before then.

It’s defintely not worth insulting each other over.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA

 

[ConstantineTG]

You go into a man’s house, you eat at his table, you drink from his cup. Am I the only man on this forum that owns a house, a table and a cup.

The problem here is that all you have is a theory. You dismiss everyone’s theory on the basis that there is no scriptural evidence of it every happening. Yet your own conclusion is based on nothing but your own guess.

Besides, Jesus and the Apostles travel. Its not far off they bring their own things. Yes, I do know people who bring their own stuff into places where they rent rooms and tables.

You invite guests into your house what do you do? you give him a cup to drink.

As I mentioned earlier, the cup used for Seder is usually a family heirloom. The owner of the house would use his cup for his family’s Seder meal.

You see you want me to believe that the disciples brought the cup with them when the man invited them into his house to eat the passover. That’s insane. The cup was the man’s property. It’s his house, his cup. Don’t you own a cup in your own house? Or do you have guests bring cups over?

Again, you have nothing to back up this claim except a guess. You’re opinion is as good as mine and others.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That’s funny. But luckily we’re no longer under the threat of the emperor.

So what you’re telling me is there is nothing that makes the piece of wood she found as valid evidence of the True Cross?

Read the accounts. Its not like she just picked up a piece of wood and declared it to be such.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Read the accounts. Its not like she just picked up a piece of wood and declared it to be such.

St. Helen reportedly found the true cross somewhere around 326-328.

Her contemporary, Eusebius of Caesarea makes no reference to her finding of the true cross.

Its not until Socrates Scholasticus completed his work in 439 that we have an account of the finding of the True Cross, essentially 100 years after the fact.

It is recorded by many in the 4th century that relics of the True Cross were being venerated but they do not share how they came to be uncovered.

 

[Jegudiel]

Wow, 57 posts and nothing but personal opinions about the Holy Grail. There is scholarship on the subject that should be reviewed by those who feel the need to respond before doing so beginning with:

Beltrán, A.: Estudio sobre el Santo Cáliz de la Catedral de Valencia. Valencia, 1960. Hay versión revisada de. 1984.

Bennett, Janice. St Laurence and the Holy Grail: The Story of the Holy Chalice of Valencia. Ignatius Press, 2004

 

[asia53]

Can you tell me St. Helen knew that she had found the True Cross?

I have read, I can’t attest to its veracity, St Helen found several buried crosses. She had workers lay a corpse on the crosses. When the corpse came back to life, it was decided it was the true cross.