THe Holy Spirit and Protestantism

[michaeldaniels]

I must apologize before finishing this initial post of this thread…I know it is going to come across as arrogant or anti-Protestant, etc…whatever else you would like to call it…but as someone WHO IS a former protestant, who’s entire family is still protestant, who is a Historian by nature of my education, and who spends a great deal of time reading/studying theology, reading the Bible, and studying Church History…I have come to a conclusion. I know this conclusion is not politically correct, but when defending The Truth and THe Faith, sometimes you can’t afford to be. Here are some questions, some may apply to you, so may not…feel free to answer:

1. My first question is, how can any protestant, with a clear conscience say that it is The Holy Spirit that leads them or keeps them in their particular denomination? (I can understand how being born into protestantism results in their initially being a protestant, but if they were TRULY following The Holy Spirit, it seems as if they would become Catholic)
2. Secondly, how can any Catholic, regardless of excuse because there simply isn’t one, claim that God called them away from The Catholic Church to become a protestant, agnostic, etc…?
3. If you are a Lutheran or Anglican, how do you justify your faith…both were started by men who at one point were devout Catholics, but when the Church wouldn’t bend to their will, they started their own Churches. One was a Catholic priest and one was called the “Fidei Defensor” by The Pope…so these were obviously people that believed in Catholicism at some point…I just want to know how one follows a man made religion that is so similar to Catholicism, yet doesn’t desire to follow Catholicism which was truly started by God.

In closing I would just like to add, that it is IMPOSSIBLE for The Holy Spirit to lead someone into error, apostasy, heresy, and sin. Just as Jesus was sinless and incapable of sinning, so is The Holy Spirit…so I am sorry and please excuse me if I don’t believe your story about The Holy Spirit leading you somewhere outside of The Church…because that is where God wants us. If you find yourself outside of The Catholic Church and you are being strongly led by something or someone…my friend, you better start praying, because it isn’t God…it is The Devil.

 

[JonNC]

=michaeldaniels;6372291]I must apologize before finishing this initial post of this thread…I know it is going to come across as arrogant or anti-Protestant, etc…whatever else you would like to call it

I would have called it triumphalist, but your terms work, too. Either way, apology accepted.

1. My first question is, how can any protestant, with a clear conscience say that it is The Holy Spirit that leads them or keeps them in their particular denomination? (I can understand how being born into protestantism results in their initially being a protestant, but if they were TRULY following The Holy Spirit, it seems as if they would become Catholic)

I’m hoping your catechism will help you answer your own question.

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Your Church can see the Holy Spirit working in my “ecclesial community” as a means of salvation. Can you?

1. If you are a Lutheran or Anglican, how do you justify your faith…both were started by men who at one point were devout Catholics, but when the Church wouldn’t bend to their will, they started their own Churches. One was a Catholic priest and one was called the “Fidei Defensor” by The Pope…so these were obviously people that believed in Catholicism at some point…I just want to know how one follows a man made religion that is so similar to Catholicism, yet doesn’t desire to follow Catholicism which was truly started by God.

Again, from your catechism:

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame

The Catholic Catechism recognizes that fault for the wounding of the Church of Christ lies in both camps. Do you?

In closing I would just like to add, that it is IMPOSSIBLE for The Holy Spirit to lead someone into error, apostasy, heresy, and sin. Just as Jesus was sinless and incapable of sinning, so is The Holy Spirit…so I am sorry and please excuse me if I don’t believe your story about The Holy Spirit leading you somewhere outside of The Church…because that is where God wants us. If you find yourself outside of The Catholic Church and you are being strongly led by something or someone…my friend, you better start praying, because it isn’t God…it is The Devil.

Given the choice between what you say Catholics believe about me, and what your Catechism says, I naturally will accept the Catholic Catechism version, and assume you were poorly catechized on the subject. My apology if that offends you.

Jon

 

[Michael_Vernon]

Michael Daniels, it doesn’t bother me if you brand me a heretic, I know Jesus of Nazareth and in my heart I have prostrated myself, a poor sinner, to kiss His nail-scarred feet to beg Him for mercy, and I trust His words when He said, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” It is very easy to divide the world into two camps, and to feel secure that you are in the right camp, and that all who are not in your camp are damned, but I pray that the LORD will open your spiritual eyes so that you can see that the Body of Christ is not as neatly divided into man-made camps as you may believe. I can tell that nothing I could say will change your mind, but I pray that the LORD will someday soften your heart to understand that your camp is not now and has never been infallible. No, the Holy Spirit would certainly never lead someone to become agnostic, but please don’t equate Protestantism with a flagrant denial of Christ. I’m sure that you can see that is unwise. Regardless, killing those that we call heretics, from any camp, has never been the work of Christ. When you look at those who have done so, have the courage to say they were wrong, regardless of which camp they were in.

 

[michaeldaniels]

Your representations and examples do nothing to support your points…other than prove that all graces and salvation FLOW FROM The Catholic Church…it doesn’t say that The Catholic Church receives from you all…on the contrary, it says the protestant denominations receive all they have from The Catholic Church.
I am not saying The Church isn’t to blame to some extent for the splits…however, it is the protestants that choose to remain outside of The Church…that choose to remain in schism…that choose to remain in heresy…that choose to live without all the sacraments, etc.

I would have called it triumphalist, but your terms work, too. Either way, apology accepted.

I’m hoping your catechism will help you answer your own question.

Your Church can see the Holy Spirit working in my “ecclesial community” as a means of salvation. Can you?

Again, from your catechism:

The Catholic Catechism recognizes that fault for the wounding of the Church of Christ lies in both camps. Do you?

Given the choice between what you say Catholics believe about me, and what your Catechism says, I naturally will accept the Catholic Catechism version, and assume you were poorly catechized on the subject. My apology if that offends you.

Jon

 

[michaeldaniels]

First, yes I agree…killing anyone unjustly for any reason, especially in the name of religion is wrong and will always be wrong…it is evil. Secondly, I am not claiming that protestants will burn in hell fire…nothing of the sort. I recognize they are members of The Body of Christ…yet due to them not having all the sacraments and the fullness of truth, they are in a way deficient. I love my protestant bretheren…my whole family is protestant and they are genuinely good people, as I am sure you all are and I can’t imagine any of them not making it to heaven…My big misunderstanding is that if we all understand that God (Jesus) created One, True, Church…and that Church has the fullness of truth and all the Sacraments and is led by the Pope who is the successor of St. Peter…despite what problems you have with Her, why would you choose to remain outside of Her??? And with that said, I refuse to believe it is because of The Holy Spirit, because The Holy Spirit will not lead someone into error. That is all I am saying…and by error, I do not mean eternal damnation…I mean “not the fullness of truth”

Michael Daniels, it doesn’t bother me if you brand me a heretic, I know Jesus of Nazareth and in my heart I have prostrated myself, a poor sinner, to kiss His nail-scarred feet to beg Him for mercy, and I trust His words when He said, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” It is very easy to divide the world into two camps, and to feel secure that you are in the right camp, and that all who are not in your camp are damned, but I pray that the LORD will open your spiritual eyes so that you can see that the Body of Christ is not as neatly divided into man-made camps as you may believe. I can tell that nothing I could say will change your mind, but I pray that the LORD will someday soften your heart to understand that your camp is not now and has never been infallible. No, the Holy Spirit would certainly never lead someone to become agnostic, but please don’t equate Protestantism with a flagrant denial of Christ. I’m sure that you can see that is unwise. Regardless, killing those that we call heretics, from any camp, has never been the work of Christ. When you look at those who have done so, have the courage to say they were wrong, regardless of which camp they were in.

 

[Vile_Servant]

1. My first question is, how can any protestant, with a clear conscience say that it is The Holy Spirit that leads them or keeps them in their particular denomination? (I can understand how being born into protestantism results in their initially being a protestant, but if they were TRULY following The Holy Spirit, it seems as if they would become Catholic)
   Catholics (especially those in public office) who don’t practice what they preach cause grave scandal, and it is no wonder that some protestants shun the Catholic Church not because of her teaching, but because of the errant behaviour of some of its members. e.g. pedophile priests, Nancy Pelosi and pro-abortion Catholics etc.
2. Secondly, how can any Catholic, regardless of excuse because there simply isn’t one, claim that God called them away from The Catholic Church to become a protestant, agnostic, etc…?
   Because of the “better news” in the protestant church, as opposed to the “good news” in the Catholic Church. for example, “once saved, always saved”, “going straight to heaven” and “no purgatory” sounds far more palatable than having to carry one’s cross and to work out one’s salvation with fear and trembling.
3. If you are a Lutheran or Anglican, how do you justify your faith…both were started by men who at one point were devout Catholics, but when the Church wouldn’t bend to their will, they started their own Churches. One was a Catholic priest and one was called the “Fidei Defensor” by The Pope…so these were obviously people that believed in Catholicism at some point…I just want to know how one follows a man made religion that is so similar to Catholicism, yet doesn’t desire to follow Catholicism which was truly started by God.
   by sola scriptura. why subject yourself to some “infallible” teaching authority of the church when you can interpret scripture to determine doctrines of faith and morals with greater authority yourself?

In closing I would just like to add, that it is IMPOSSIBLE for The Holy Spirit to lead someone into error, apostasy, heresy, and sin. Just as Jesus was sinless and incapable of sinning, so is The Holy Spirit…so I am sorry and please excuse me if I don’t believe your story about The Holy Spirit leading you somewhere outside of The Church…because that is where God wants us. If you find yourself outside of The Catholic Church and you are being strongly led by something or someone…my friend, you better start praying, because it isn’t God…it is The Devil.
God gives all of us free will to choose what we believe and which church to join. The Holy Spirit leads the Church to the fullness of the Truth, but forces no one to go where they wish not to go.

 

[Yggdrasil]

In closing I would just like to add, that it is IMPOSSIBLE for The Holy Spirit to lead someone into error, apostasy, heresy, and sin.

Your own Second Vatican Council seems to contradict that statement. Vatican II claimed the Holy Spirit, and look at its documents; look at its fruits. It taught heresy and led the faithful into heresy—at least, that is, if you want to hold the teachings of the Council up to the Catholic standard. Like the Protestant Reformation, Vatican II kicked off an epoch of confusion in the churches. The Holy Spirit (presumably) guided a Council that caused a precipitous decline in Mass attendance and a laissez-faire approach doctrinal orthodoxy. Now you can either try to make sense of the chaos (and obsessively debate the intricacies of heresy with all the scholastic precision of deciding how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, and you can wring your hands over “the implimentation of the Council’s directives”)—OR, you can just frankly admit that “the only real heresy is the idea that there is such a thing as heresy.”

Like you, Michael, I was a Protestant convert to Catholicism. I was a Catholic for seven years. The first thing that horrified me was the Novus Ordo liturgy, until I was struck next by the Babel of confusion that Rome had become. Studying the post-conciliar Church made me a sedevacantist first, but studying it even more finally made me an Anglican again. Because why bother? Like the earlier examples of Henry VIII and Martin Luther, Vatican II proves that Christianity is a man-made religion—made up as it goes along according to the personal, societal, or ecclesiastical whims of the day. Whether one is Lutheran, Anglican, or Catholic, we’re all just grasping at the Western tradition of the perennial philosophy, and adhering to the form that best suits our spiritual needs. As the Vedas say: “Truth is one, but sages call it variously.”

 

[wmscott]

I must apologize before finishing this initial post of this thread…I know it is going to come across as arrogant or anti-Protestant, etc…whatever else you would like to call it…but as someone WHO IS a former protestant, who’s entire family is still protestant, who is a Historian by nature of my education, and who spends a great deal of time reading/studying theology, reading the Bible, and studying Church History…I have come to a conclusion. I know this conclusion is not politically correct, but when defending The Truth and THe Faith, sometimes you can’t afford to be. Here are some questions, some may apply to you, so may not…feel free to answer:
**
Let me start by saying that I wish that there was no division and that all were a part of the beautiful catholic Faith. That being said, because sin does exist, and it is through sin that there is division in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic faith. Let’s face it we are human, we are imperfect, and we are sinners.**

1. My first question is, how can any protestant, with a clear conscience say that it is The Holy Spirit that leads them or keeps them in their particular denomination? (I can understand how being born into protestantism results in their initially being a protestant, but if they were TRULY following The Holy Spirit, it seems as if they would become Catholic)

**Protestants are Christians and our brothers and sisters in Christ, they are our disobedient brothers and sisters, but none the less they our brothers and sisters in Christ, again the sin thing that is inherent in being human. However you, I, we, or anyone else can not say that the Holy Spirit is or is not leading someone to stay or not to stay in any particular denomination. Maybe the Holy Spirit needs them there for some reason, or maybe the Holy Spirit knows they would not make a good Catholic. Whatever the reason is, I am sure God knows why, God works through these denominations just as he does with the Catholic Church. The only sad thing is that they miss out on the other sacraments that we have. Especially the Most Holy Eucharist. **

1. Secondly, how can any Catholic, regardless of excuse because there simply isn’t one, claim that God called them away from The Catholic Church to become a protestant, agnostic, etc…?

**We are weak, imperfect, and sinners. I will wager these folks have either not been properly raised in the Catholic faith, have experienced a crisis within their faith that drove them away, or are just spiritually weak. What ever the reason we need to pray for them and for all Christians that one day we will heal the divisions. **

1. If you are a Lutheran or Anglican, how do you justify your faith…both were started by men who at one point were devout Catholics, but when the Church wouldn’t bend to their will, they started their own Churches. One was a Catholic priest and one was called the “Fidei Defensor” by The Pope…so these were obviously people that believed in Catholicism at some point…I just want to know how one follows a man made religion that is so similar to Catholicism, yet doesn’t desire to follow Catholicism which was truly started by God.

See answers 1 & 2

In closing I would just like to add, that it is IMPOSSIBLE for The Holy Spirit to lead someone into error, apostasy, heresy, and sin. Just as Jesus was sinless and incapable of sinning, so is The Holy Spirit…so I am sorry and please excuse me if I don’t believe your story about The Holy Spirit leading you somewhere outside of The Church…because that is where God wants us. If you find yourself outside of The Catholic Church and you are being strongly led by something or someone…my friend, you better start praying, because it isn’t God…it is The Devil.

My friend, with all Christian charity and kindness, I think that you are being very presumptuous and judgmental here. With statements like this, you seem to be saying that you know Gods mind and will. I am a convert to this beautiful Catholic faith. However, the rest of my family are Protestant and will never be catholic in this life time. As I have said, it is sin that has divided the Church that Christ established, but we can not say that the Holy Spirit is not with them also. As our Church teaches, CCC

**818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.” **

Peace be with you.

 

[JonNC]

=michaeldaniels;6372605]Your representations and examples do nothing to support your points…other than prove that all graces and salvation FLOW FROM The Catholic Church…it doesn’t say that The Catholic Church receives from you all…on the contrary, it says the protestant denominations receive all they have from The Catholic Church.

I did not post them to support my points, but simply to refute your position which, based on the Catholic Catechism, is outside your Church’s teaching about, in my case. Lutherans. You claim we teach contrary to the Catholic Church. Seems you do, too.

I am not saying The Church isn’t to blame to some extent for the splits…however, it is the protestants that choose to remain outside of The Church…that choose to remain in schism…that choose to remain in heresy…that choose to live without all the sacraments, etc.

Again, you misrepresent your own Church’s teaching. Catholic Church teaches that our sacrament of Baptism is valid, and that a marriage in a Lutheran Church can be sacramental.

Why should I listen to someone who poorly represents his/her own Church, as you have done in this thread?

Jon

 

[wmscott]

I did not post them to support my points, but simply to refute your position which, based on the Catholic Catechism, is outside your Church’s teaching about, in my case. Lutherans. You claim we teach contrary to the Catholic Church. Seems you do, too.

Again, you misrepresent your own Church’s teaching. Catholic Church teaches that our sacrament of Baptism is valid, and that a marriage in a Lutheran Church can be sacramental.

Why should I listen to someone who poorly represents his/her own Church, as you have done in this thread?

Jon

Just a little correction here. Marriage in a Christian Church is Sacramental. The Catholic Church recognizes that the Protestant faiths practice these two of the the seven sacraments. Baptism and marriage.

 

[Bill_Pick]

I must apologize before finishing this initial post of this thread…I know it is going to come across as arrogant or anti-Protestant, etc…whatever else you would like to call it…but as someone WHO IS a former protestant, who’s entire family is still protestant, who is a Historian by nature of my education, and who spends a great deal of time reading/studying theology, reading the Bible, and studying Church History…I have come to a conclusion. I know this conclusion is not politically correct, but when defending The Truth and THe Faith, sometimes you can’t afford to be. Here are some questions, some may apply to you, so may not…feel free to answer:

1. My first question is, how can any protestant, with a clear conscience say that it is The Holy Spirit that leads them or keeps them in their particular denomination? (I can understand how being born into protestantism results in their initially being a protestant, but if they were TRULY following The Holy Spirit, it seems as if they would become Catholic)
2. Secondly, how can any Catholic, regardless of excuse because there simply isn’t one, claim that God called them away from The Catholic Church to become a protestant, agnostic, etc…?
3. If you are a Lutheran or Anglican, how do you justify your faith…both were started by men who at one point were devout Catholics, but when the Church wouldn’t bend to their will, they started their own Churches. One was a Catholic priest and one was called the “Fidei Defensor” by The Pope…so these were obviously people that believed in Catholicism at some point…I just want to know how one follows a man made religion that is so similar to Catholicism, yet doesn’t desire to follow Catholicism which was truly started by God.

In closing I would just like to add, that it is IMPOSSIBLE for The Holy Spirit to lead someone into error, apostasy, heresy, and sin. Just as Jesus was sinless and incapable of sinning, so is The Holy Spirit…so I am sorry and please excuse me if I don’t believe your story about The Holy Spirit leading you somewhere outside of The Church…because that is where God wants us. If you find yourself outside of The Catholic Church and you are being strongly led by something or someone…my friend, you better start praying, because it isn’t God…it is The Devil.

Thank You for a very Good post ,the Holy Spirit must be a very busy person,some one must be in error and I will say it must be a man made church or a non-denomination are a church that was started after the year 1400

 

[Roblox84]

1. My first question is, how can any protestant, with a clear conscience say that it is The Holy Spirit that leads them or keeps them in their particular denomination? (I can understand how being born into protestantism results in their initially being a protestant, but if they were TRULY following The Holy Spirit, it seems as if they would become Catholic)
2. Secondly, how can any Catholic, regardless of excuse because there simply isn’t one, claim that God called them away from The Catholic Church to become a protestant, agnostic, etc…?

Being a Catholic I don’t know if my opinion counts, but I will tell you why I think this is. Like you first mentioned, a lot of people are just born into that faith and trust their Pastors because they were preaching for years.

Also, you have to know that the term “holy spirit” is used very loosely amongst people. Sometimes I may say that the holy spirit told me to take a particular route home and later I find out that the decision to listen to that saved me from a car crash. When people claim “holy spirit” it is more of a gut feeling or simply just their own decision. So there usually is an underlying reason why someone would go to another church. I know of some preachers that stated the holy spirit led them to present a certain sermon on Sunday. Do you really think that the holy spirit would say “pastor so and so, I think you should tell the people this…”?

The reason why many are also in other denominations is frankly because of geographic reasons. If one moves down south or lives in the south, they are mainly exposed to Baptist churches and eventually at some point they think it is better to go to a church then no church at all.

Another reason is personality reasons. Many people simply want to go to a church that fits them the best. Things such as: Which sermons sound the most extravagant, the elaborateness of terminology being used (damnation, hell, fire, demons, etc…), also the persuasiveness of the pastor. If the pastor is good, he can use the bible to provide proof for their own faith while condemning others.

And lastly it is because of things they might have heard from other people. For example Catholic priests doing things with kids or baptists using the bible to approve slavery. This might tend to make someone look at the faith as a whole instead of on the individual perp.

 

[GKC]

I must apologize before finishing this initial post of this thread…I know it is going to come across as arrogant or anti-Protestant, etc…whatever else you would like to call it…but as someone WHO IS a former protestant, who’s entire family is still protestant, who is a Historian by nature of my education, and who spends a great deal of time reading/studying theology, reading the Bible, and studying Church History…I have come to a conclusion. I know this conclusion is not politically correct, but when defending The Truth and THe Faith, sometimes you can’t afford to be. Here are some questions, some may apply to you, so may not…feel free to answer:

1. My first question is, how can any protestant, with a clear conscience say that it is The Holy Spirit that leads them or keeps them in their particular denomination? (I can understand how being born into protestantism results in their initially being a protestant, but if they were TRULY following The Holy Spirit, it seems as if they would become Catholic)
2. Secondly, how can any Catholic, regardless of excuse because there simply isn’t one, claim that God called them away from The Catholic Church to become a protestant, agnostic, etc…?
3. If you are a Lutheran or Anglican, how do you justify your faith…both were started by men who at one point were devout Catholics, but when the Church wouldn’t bend to their will, they started their own Churches. One was a Catholic priest and one was called the “Fidei Defensor” by The Pope…so these were obviously people that believed in Catholicism at some point…I just want to know how one follows a man made religion that is so similar to Catholicism, yet doesn’t desire to follow Catholicism which was truly started by God.

In closing I would just like to add, that it is IMPOSSIBLE for The Holy Spirit to lead someone into error, apostasy, heresy, and sin. Just as Jesus was sinless and incapable of sinning, so is The Holy Spirit…so I am sorry and please excuse me if I don’t believe your story about The Holy Spirit leading you somewhere outside of The Church…because that is where God wants us. If you find yourself outside of The Catholic Church and you are being strongly led by something or someone…my friend, you better start praying, because it isn’t God…it is The Devil.

The title Henry received from Leo X, in 1521, was, more properly Defensor Fidei. Interesting story how that all came about. It was not totally in response to the Assertio Septem Sacramentorum, as it often thought.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[larkin31]

1. Secondly, how can any Catholic, regardless of excuse because there simply isn’t one, claim that God called them away from The Catholic Church to become a protestant, agnostic, etc…?
2. If you are a Lutheran or Anglican, how do you justify your faith…both were started by men who at one point were devout Catholics, but when the Church wouldn’t bend to their will, they started their own Churches. One was a Catholic priest and one was called the “Fidei Defensor” by The Pope…so these were obviously people that believed in Catholicism at some point…I just want to know how one follows a man made religion that is so similar to Catholicism, yet doesn’t desire to follow Catholicism which was truly started by God.

These questions are the more interesting to me.

As an answer, I would offer only the case of Saul of Tarsus. You can take it from there…

 

[Janet1983]

I must apologize before finishing this initial post of this thread…I know it is going to come across as arrogant or anti-Protestant, etc…whatever else you would like to call it…

It actually is not coming across as arrogant or anti-Protestant, but thank you for your concern and your apologies. I appreciate this more than you might expect. As a Protestant on a Catholic board I have seen worse and as a former Catholic I doubtless have seen worse. We are all human and sometimes our zeal and our charity are conflicting and charity does not always have the upper hand.

1. My first question is, how can any protestant, with a clear conscience say that it is The Holy Spirit that leads them or keeps them in their particular denomination? (I can understand how being born into protestantism results in their initially being a protestant, but if they were TRULY following The Holy Spirit, it seems as if they would become Catholic)

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is just leading my particular denomination. Yes, I am part of a denominational church, but I do not see myself as a member of a denomination. I see myself as a Christian who happens to attend that particular church and be a member in the local congregation.
I believe that the Holy Spirit guides all those who surrender their lives to the Lord.

1. Secondly, how can any Catholic, regardless of excuse because there simply isn’t one, claim that God called them away from The Catholic Church to become a protestant, agnostic, etc…?

Well I do not believe that I am guilty in the eyes of God so I do not need an excuse why I left the Catholic Church in favor of a Protestant denomination. Most of my family is still Catholic, but I was actually the only one practicing before I converted. I accept that in the eyes of the Catholic Church I am a rebellious and unrepentant heretic and schismatic after having been exposed to Roman Catholic teaching from Daycare to High school and as a very active member of my parish. It does not bother me if I am called a heretic on this board. I know Catholic teaching and I sometimes come to appreciate it as a sign that someone is trying to be honest with me and cuts out the politically correct jargon.

In closing I would just like to add, that it is IMPOSSIBLE for The Holy Spirit to lead someone into error, apostasy, heresy, and sin. Just as Jesus was sinless and incapable of sinning, so is The Holy Spirit…so I am sorry and please excuse me if I don’t believe your story about The Holy Spirit leading you somewhere outside of The Church…because that is where God wants us. If you find yourself outside of The Catholic Church and you are being strongly led by something or someone…my friend, you better start praying, because it isn’t God…it is The Devil.

Yes indeed, the Holy Spirit will not lead anybody astray. I do not believe however that I am being led astray and therefore I do not believe that I am being led by the devil.
The Catholic Church might accuse me of wandering off into heresy and schism, but I believe they are wrong in that aspect and as human beings they are entitled to their opinions and teachings, both the right and the wrong.

 

[gamewell45]

1. If you are a Lutheran or Anglican, how do you justify your faith…both were started by men who at one point were devout Catholics, but when the Church wouldn’t bend to their will, they started their own Churches. One was a Catholic priest and one was called the “Fidei Defensor” by The Pope…so these were obviously people that believed in Catholicism at some point…I just want to know how one follows a man made religion that is so similar to Catholicism, yet doesn’t desire to follow Catholicism which was truly started by God.

Most likely for some of us, we do not agree with some of the teachings of the Catholic Church plain and simple.

 

[Jon_Hus]

michaeldaniels,

On this forum at least, the term protestant is used to define a person who claimes to be a believer in Christ who does not belong to either the Roman Catholic Church or the EO Church. As a person who will allow myself to be classified as a protestant on this forum, I must tell you that I’m not exactly thrilled to be labled a protestant. Why? Because “protestant” covers a lot of theological territory. Referring to a person as a protestant can have a varied meanings.

Your OP is making a statement in the form of asking a question. I think, as I understand you, your claim is that based on your personal experience, the Holy Spitit of God is working in the RCC and is not in evidence in any protestant (ie: non-catholic) church groups. The inference then would be that God works in the RCC and not anywhere else and thus back up the claim of the Popes that the Roman Catholic Church is the one true church and that only by being associated with the RCC can a man be saved. Perhaps I’m misunderstand you on some points but I think I’m getting the main point that you wish to communicate.

So, according to you the answer to the 64 thousand question “what must I do to be saved” is become associated with the RCC (Acts 16:30-31 not withstanding) attend mass and see the Holy Spirit of God in action, something not happening in protestant churches.

No doubt you will pick apart my statements in an attempt to look eccumenical. I say go for it.

Jon

 

[sharmin]

Do you really think that the holy spirit would say “pastor so and so, I think you should tell the people this…”?.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean here. Of course I believe that. I, as a Catholic school teacher, always pray before I teach about Him to ask God to guide me as to where I go with that particular group.