The Holy Spirit and the womanhood/femininty

[nablaise]

I have heard some confusion about trying to see the Holy Spirit as feminine. While some come from pagan source trying to make God in our image, others come from Christians trying to see how the human family is the image of God. I have been thinking about this for long myself because I wanted to get the proper understanding within the Church teachings.

The Father give himself fully and whole to the Son. The Son does the same. And their love is so selfless that is is as separate from each of them, so infinite that it is a entirely a different person in himself: the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the personification of the very heart of the Father which is the heart of the Son because he is his image. And this person is the very love they have for each other.

And God made man in his image. Man was not good (not complete image of God) as long as he was not able to have a son. So he needed a helper in this business. God loved man so much that he wanted him to experience his very life of ever overflowing love. Adam had to have also a son in his image and needed a helper. But who will be this helper if not a person made from the man’s heart with a flesh and bones from his rib? So a woman was made so she can help a son. So she can be the personnification of the man’s love. The love of the father to his son and vice versa. Or as they say, so that she can be the heart of the family.

it seems to me that the Holy Spirit is the personification of divinity itself while a woman is the personnification of Creation. So the Holy Spirit is far from being feminine as God is far from being creation. In fact It is important to notice the name ‘Holy Spirit’. There is an emphasis on ‘Spirit’ as to remind us that God is a spirit. Probably the Holy Spirit is not just a ‘spirit’ but the very personnification of spirithood…

An other way to understand the situation. A woman fall in love with the heart/spirit of the man. She fall in love with a spirit. But man’s spirit is not a different person as it is for God, instead, as a woman espouse this spirit, this heart of man she slowly personnify it and with conjugal relations she become the flesh and bone of her bridegroom. That is according to the ways of love, her spirit conform to the spirit she has espoused which is the heart of her man. It is in this sens that I am starting to understand the story of Genesis.

So God is pure Spirit, while man is both spiritual and bodly. Therefore the image of God in man can be seen as man woman and their son. But since we have God and a Creature made in his image, this creature is a creature. And one person of each trinity personify its nature. The HOly Spirit personify divinity itself while a woman personify humanity and creation.

Mary fell in love with the heart of God meaning the Holy Spirit, and she became the mother of the Son. And by this wonderful grace of God we have a son who united divinity and creation in himself through both the agents of each nature: the Holy Spirit and the woman.

So Instead of saying that the Holy Spirit is feminine, we should say that Creation is feminine. And I think this is the lesson we learn with the wonder of the Church. The Church is a mother the bride of Christ. Through man, God has always considered creation a sort of bride. He considered Israel to be his bride. And now with the new covenant, it is the new creatioin which is the Church who is the bride and have the feminine character. And the Holy Spirit is who is always, the heart of God, the heart of Christ in the Church. And since the Church is the Body of Christ, both Christ and the Church have the same heart which is the person of the Holy Spirit.

God bless

 

[Suzanmo]

HI Nablaise.
There is a lot of confusion concerning the Holy Spirit.
In the greek new testament the holy spirit is neuter.The english translation wrongly renders it masculine. In hebrew the word spirit is a feminine noun. Also if you look at some heretic gospels, like the gnostic gospels, the holy spirit was believed to be feminine.
Now, as for your own interpretation… I don’t know, the human mind can make up many theories, but the divine reality can be known only through the spirit, not the mind.

 

[narrowpath]

In Jewish theology, the shekinah glory (holy cloud, holy spirit) was traditionally viewed as feminine

 

[Ron_Conte]

It is irrelevant whether the word spirit is feminine or masculine in one language or another. Does anyone think that mere grammatical gender determines the nature of the Holy Spirit?

The Jews have no explicit understanding or belief in the Holy Spirit, so the Jewish tradition among Rabbis is irrelevant.

The required belief is that God is Three Persons in One Nature.

It seems to me irreconcilable with that belief to say that the Spirit is feminine in some way, and that the Father and Son are masculine. All Three Persons together are the One Nature. The Nature is not divided at all, and certainly not divided into masculine and feminine.

 

[nablaise]

It is irrelevant whether the word spirit is feminine or masculine in one language or another. Does anyone think that mere grammatical gender determines the nature of the Holy Spirit?

The Jews have no explicit understanding or belief in the Holy Spirit, so the Jewish tradition among Rabbis is irrelevant.

The required belief is that God is Three Persons in One Nature.

It seems to me irreconcilable with that belief to say that the Spirit is feminine in some way, and that the Father and Son are masculine. All Three Persons together are the One Nature. The Nature is not divided at all, and certainly not divided into masculine and feminine.

Hmm, masculinity and feminity are not natures. For example a girl and a boy are both of the same nature: human. So the Human nature is not divided because we have the male and female.

I think what we have to keep in mind is that God is a spirit, so we can’t assign any kind of ‘sexual’ division in God. However since we are made in the image of God we can try to see what is it in us that mirror something in God, not the other way around because it is not God who is made in our image but we are in his image.

I also think there is also a problem of language in us humans. I speak three language. In one of them, God is not identified with any gender, he has his own article to identify him which is not ‘he’ or ‘she’. In fact, this language does not have a ‘he’ or ‘she’. The article used to identify humans point to them as persons, not as males or females. Yet, again for God, he is identified again different from humans. I find that it is very easy to understand the Trinity when thinking in this language than English or French or any other language which refers to person according to their genders.

God bless

 

[jcrichton]

Hmm, masculinity and feminity are not natures. For example a girl and a boy are both of the same nature: human. So the Human nature is not divided because we have the male and female.

I think what we have to keep in mind is that God is a spirit, so we can’t assign any kind of ‘sexual’ division in God. However since we are made in the image of God we can try to see what is it in us that mirror something in God, not the other way around because it is not God who is made in our image but we are in his image.

I also think there is also a problem of language in us humans. I speak three language. In one of them, God is not identified with any gender, he has his own article to identify him which is not ‘he’ or ‘she’. In fact, this language does not have a ‘he’ or ‘she’. The article used to identify humans point to them as persons, not as males or females. Yet, again for God, he is identified again different from humans. I find that it is very easy to understand the Trinity when thinking in this language than English or French or any other language which refers to person according to their genders.

God bless

Hi, nablaise!

There are certain factors with which we must determine the entity know as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

As a Catholic, I cannot subscribe to any definition other than that of the Catholic Church; she teaches that the Holy Scriptures define God as the Father (male), the Son, (male) and the Holy Spirit (male). It is the Yahweh God that Speaks about the Son ("…this is my Son, Him you listen to…"); it is the Messiah, Jesus that Speaks about the Father ("…the Father and I are One…"); it is also Jesus that Speaks about the other Paraclete (the Holy Spirit) when He tells us that He will send Him to us, the disciples, when He returns to the Father ("…and He will teach you…").

Is sexual gender required to address God, who is Spirit?

Well… did God Speak of Himself as a genderless or subjective gender creature?

From the Old Testament to the New Testament God has applied the male gender as His determined gender. Anyone who believes that he/she can take some poetic or other license and impose some other gender (including the intellectual “no xy chromosomes means that it is subjective…”) on God is far from being obedient to El Shaddai.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Ron_Conte]

God is not literally made of ‘spirit’. The human soul is a type of spiritual substance. The angelic nature is a type of spiritual substance. But God’s nature is unique; He is not like any part of His creation. The saying that God is spirit is a figure of speech; He is not literally made of a spiritual substance.

If so, then He would be divided into His nature and His acts. But God is absolutely simple. Therefore His Nature is His Acts, and all His Acts are One Divine Eternal Act. God is nothing else but One Divine Eternal Act. That Act is His Nature.

 

[jcrichton]

God is not literally made of ‘spirit’. The human soul is a type of spiritual substance. The angelic nature is a type of spiritual substance. But God’s nature is unique; He is not like any part of His creation. The saying that God is spirit is a figure of speech; He is not literally made of a spiritual substance.

If so, then He would be divided into His nature and His acts. But God is absolutely simple. Therefore His Nature is His Acts, and all His Acts are One Divine Eternal Act. God is nothing else but One Divine Eternal Act. That Act is His Nature.

Hi, Ron Conte!

How do you reconcile your statements with Jesus’:

“God is Spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit and in truth.?”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Ron_Conte]

Hi, Ron Conte!

How do you reconcile your statements with Jesus’:

“God is Spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit and in truth.?”

Maran atha!

Angel

The teaching that God is Spirit is a figure of speech, like the saying that God has a strong right arm, or that God is angry, or that God laughs.

Spirit is a created thing, but God is uncreated.

 

[jcrichton]

The teaching that God is Spirit is a figure of speech, like the saying that God has a strong right arm, or that God is angry, or that God laughs.

Spirit is a created thing, but God is uncreated.

…by that logic the Jehovah Witnesses are right since they claim that there is no Holy Trinity, that Jesus is a subservient of Yahweh God and that Jesus only spoke figuratively about His relationship with the Father.

Being El Shaddai does not mean that He is limited to a non-corporeal existence or that He is devoid of understanding human emotions or that He cannot experience them.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[nablaise]

Could it be that may be the word ‘Spirit’ means ‘Act’ in that quote from Jesus? …meaning that we must worship him in our acts and in truth?

Can someone define what ‘spirit’ actually mean?

God bless

 

[Ron_Conte]

…that Jesus only spoke figuratively about His relationship with the Father.

Being El Shaddai does not mean that He is limited to a non-corporeal existence or that He is devoid of understanding human emotions or that He cannot experience them.

The terms Father, Son, and Spirit applied to the three Persons of the Trinity are also figures.

It is contrary to Catholic teaching to say that God in His Divine Nature, not in the Incarnation, but in the Divine Nature itself, may be corporeal or may include spirit similar to the human soul or the angelic spirit. It is also contrary to Catholic teaching to say that the Divine Nature can experience emotion or any kind of change whatsoever. The Divine Nature of God is absolutely simple and unchanging.

 

[bcuster]

Let me go back to the original question. We need to go back to Genesis 1:27 “God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.” The male and female characteristics are not in opposition to each other. Male and female are part of the whole that makes us the creatures God created. If man, male and female, are created in the image of God, then male and female characteristics are to be found in God. This is a mystery beyond my ablilty to explain. There is a lot of male versus female thinking going on. God created Unity, not disunity. The devil tries to divide and separate us into male versus female. The unity of male and female is a sign of the Unity of God and his Church. Seek unity. Don’t divide.

 

[Ron_Conte]

If man, male and female, are created in the image of God, then male and female characteristics are to be found in God.

Creation is like God, but God is not like Creation. So it does not follow that, since man and woman are created in the image of God, then God must have male and female characteristics.

And it is absurd to claim that those male and female characteristics are divided up, within the Divine Nature, so that the Holy Spirit has all/most of the female characteristics. God is One in His Nature, the Nature is nothing else by the Three Persons and the Three Persons are nothing else but the One Nature.

God is truly and absolutely simple. So neither the Nature nor the Persons have any set or subset of characteristics. The difference between the Persons is found solely in procession: the Father does not proceed, the Son proceeds only from the Father, the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son.

Otherwise, God would not be One and would not be absolutely simple.

 

[nablaise]

Ron, I understand most of what you are saying, but I don’t undestand why you think Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are symbols. I truly don’t think this is Catholic doctrine. Of course they are not like in man. The Fatherhood of God is not like that of man, for example the fatherhood of man happens in time while it is not true for God…but I think those realities are as real as the Lord indicated when ordering that we be baptised with the formula we know.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Ron, I understand most of what you are saying, but I don’t undestand why you think Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are symbols. I truly don’t think this is Catholic doctrine. Of course they are not like in man. The Fatherhood of God is not like that of man, for example the fatherhood of man happens in time while it is not true for God…but I think those realities are as real as the Lord indicated when ordering that we be baptised with the formula we know.

I don’t think that Father, Son, and Spirit are symbols; that would be heretical.

I’m saying that the terminology uses figures, such as relating the Persons of the Trinity to human family relations, in that we call the First Person the Father and the Second Person the Son. Also, notice that a different figure is used for the Holy Spirit (not the figure of a mother or daughter). This change of figures is necessary because the Holy Spirit is not representative of ‘womanhood/femininity’ as some might claim.

But of course these figures refer to the Three real distinct Persons of the one God.

 

[nablaise]

Also, notice that a different figure is used for the Holy Spirit (not the figure of a mother or daughter). This change of figures is necessary because the Holy Spirit is not representative of ‘womanhood/femininity’ as some might claim.

.

Ok, I agree with you here. This is what I was trying to say in the OP. The fact that a different figure is used is significant…

 

[Ron_Conte]

I don’t agree with the original post; it is poorly worded.

But yes, the relation between man and woman is a figure of the relation between God and Creation.

 

[Suzanmo]

But yes, the relation between man and woman is a figure of the relation between God and Creation.

Sounds a little bit islamic. Mohhamed said “If a woman is to prostrate to another person (besides Allah) it will be her husband.”

.(Sunaan Abu Dawud 11.2135)

The created worships the creator, do you imply that woman should worship man?

 

[jcrichton]

Could it be that may be the word ‘Spirit’ means ‘Act’ in that quote from Jesus? …meaning that we must worship him in our acts and in truth?

Can someone define what ‘spirit’ actually mean?

God bless

…the problem with this type (definition) is that when the word “Spirit” is applied to the Holy Spirit, to the Father and to Jesus (the Father is Spirit, the Son is Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father/God and the Spirit of Christ) then it must follow that God is an “act;” this, of course would make God a thing/action not a higher being… conversely, many believe that everything that exists came to be through a random act of change–by adopting this particular view wouldn’t we be designating the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as just such an entity?

Maran atha!

Angel