The Holy Spirit - Separated?

[K_C]

(I posted this a few days ago in the Ask an Apologist forum, but it was not addressed. I am guessing that this is the correct forum for questions about theology and hope that a member - perhaps a priest? - can answer me.)

From today’s gospel:

“But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.” (JN 16:7)

Whenever I read or hear this passage, I am puzzled. This is because Jesus taught us about the Holy Trinity in various statements, such as “The Father and I are one.” “Whoever sees me, sees the Father.” “Go forth, baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” HOWEVER…

Since we know that the Trinity is inseparable and that Jesus said that the Father was always with Him, what does the Church have to say about today’s reading? That is, WHY did Jesus say that in order for the Holy Spirit to be present among men, Jesus would have to leave them??

 

[Benadam]

(I posted this a few days ago in the Ask an Apologist forum, but it was not addressed. I am guessing that this is the correct forum for questions about theology and hope that a member - perhaps a priest? - can answer me.)

From today’s gospel:

“But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.” (JN 16:7)

Whenever I read or hear this passage, I am puzzled. This is because Jesus taught us about the Holy Trinity in various statements, such as “The Father and I are one.” “Whoever sees me, sees the Father.” “Go forth, baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” HOWEVER…

Since we know that the Trinity is inseparable and that Jesus said that the Father was always with Him, what does the Church have to say about today’s reading? That is, WHY did Jesus say that in order for the Holy Spirit to be present among men, Jesus would have to leave them??

Because in His flesh Jesus reunited heaven and earth. The seperation suffered between man and God is healed and it’s only after Jesus ascends to His Father and unites His humanity to the Father that the Holy Spirit can indwell all flesh united to Christ in a more intimate union. Because the hypostatic union within the Person of Jesus unites heaven and earth that the Holy Spirit can indwell humanity joined to Jesus in the intimacy established by it.

 

[K_C]

Because in His flesh Jesus reunited heaven and earth. The seperation suffered between man and God is healed and it’s only after Jesus ascends to His Father and unites His humanity to the Father that the Holy Spirit can indwell all flesh united to Christ in a more intimate union. Because the hypostatic union within the Person of Jesus unites heaven and earth that the Holy Spirit can indwell humanity joined to Jesus in the intimacy established by it.

Thank you for your response. Is this your own thinking or is it the Church’s? It does sound like it makes sense. However, when Jesus said, “When you see me, you see the Father,” did He not mean that we also see the Holy Spirit? We have always been taught that God is indivisible - ONE.

Also, based on what Jesus said, why was it necessary for Him to ascend to the Father (since He and the Father “are one”)? When you say that “it’s only after Jesus ascends…that the Holy Spirit can indwell all flesh…”, doesn’t this, then, put limitations on the abilities of the Holy Spirit? But the Holy Spirit is as much God as is Jesus or the Father, is He not? Then why was He not simply present - in Jesus - as was the Father? Why this need for Jesus to leave before the Holy Spirit could be present, when God is indivisible?

I realize that this is a mystery. However, I just wanted to know if the Church (theologians) have ever addressed this mystery and what, if anything, they were able to conclude about it based upon the remarks made by Christ.

 

[Benadam]

Thank you for your response. Is this your own thinking or is it the Church’s? It does sound like it makes sense. However, when Jesus said, “When you see me, you see the Father,” did He not mean that we also see the Holy Spirit? We have always been taught that God is indivisible - ONE.

Also, based on what Jesus said, why was it necessary for Him to ascend to the Father (since He and the Father “are one”)? When you say that “it’s only after Jesus ascends…that the Holy Spirit can indwell all flesh…”, doesn’t this, then, put limitations on the abilities of the Holy Spirit? But the Holy Spirit is as much God as is Jesus or the Father, is He not? Then why was He not simply present - in Jesus - as was the Father? Why this need for Jesus to leave before the Holy Spirit could be present, when God is indivisible?

I realize that this is a mystery. However, I just wanted to know if the Church (theologians) have ever addressed this mystery and what, if anything, they were able to conclude about it based upon the remarks made by Christ.

Wherever Jesus is so is the Father and the Spirit. Even though, the Son alone became flesh and that is the earth that must ascend and be reunited with God the Father in heaven so God the Spirit can unite with earth, and so, unite with man in a new way.

The divinization of human flesh had to be completed in Christ first. At it’s completion Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. With earth completely reunited to God, through God, God could come and indwell in that unity.

I don’t knowingly accept theology the Church doesn’t accept. If what I wrote is not the mind of the Church I beg for correction. I used my own words to express the concepts but I don’t believe I’ve muddied the water with my own folly.

 

[PaulAndrew83]

It is to do with the fact that the Holy Spirit would not come until Our Lord has been crucified.

Paul

 

[passus]

Err…it is important that we are careful not to deny the distinct nature of each of the three persons of the Trinity when considering circumincession.

 

[K_C]

Wherever Jesus is so is the Father and the Spirit. Even though, the Son alone became flesh and that is the earth that must ascend and be reunited with God the Father in heaven so God the Spirit can unite with earth, and so, unite with man in a new way.

The divinization of human flesh had to be completed in Christ first. At it’s completion Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. With earth completely reunited to God, through God, God could come and indwell in that unity.

I don’t knowingly accept theology the Church doesn’t accept. If what I wrote is not the mind of the Church I beg for correction. I used my own words to express the concepts but I don’t believe I’ve muddied the water with my own folly.

Then, I take it, that is the teaching of the Church. It sounds right. However, the divinization of human flesh would only apply to Christ because all other humans remain sinners - at least until they work with God’s grace to become sanctified. You also said “so God the Spirit can…”. But doesn’t this put a limitation on the works of the Holy Spirit then? That is, He seems to only be able to “operate” after Christ allows it?? If that were the case, then the Son (or the Father, or both) would be greater than the Holy Spirit.

Most of all, though, wasn’t the Holy Spirit as much present in Christ as was the Father? If so, why did He have to wait to be “sent”? You see, my questions revolve around the unity of the Trinity and their equality in Persons, which seems to be denied in these words of Christ’s.

 

[Benadam]

However, the divinization of human flesh would only apply to Christ because all other humans remain sinners

 

[K_C]

-

At the resurrection the Saints recieve divinized flesh. This is the body glorified. Same thing. We are given foretastes of this even during our earthly lives.

I do know about “glorified” bodies. However, what “foretastes” do you mean?

No limitation that wasn’t placed their by our sin in the first place. Original sin placed a barrier between man and God untill it is removed. Jesus accomplished this and in so doing the Spirit indwelled man in a more intimate union.

That makes sense.

God obeys God. That is not what distinguishes greatness for them. The Father is greater because He generates the Son and both are greater than the Spirit in that the Spirit proceeds from them.

I did not realize that the Father actually IS greater than the Son or that the Son IS greater than the Spirit. Is this actual theology? But if this is true, then the Father must have preceded the Son and they both preceded the Spirit. Yet Jesus existed within the Godhead before He assumed human flesh too. (“Before Abraham came to be I AM.”)

I always thought that Jesus said “The Father is greater than I,” ONLY to demonstrate His sublime humility and, even more, His great LOVE for the Father. Anyone who truly loves believes the beloved to be greater than the lover himself - that is the lover feels humbled before the object of his love. So that is how I interpreted what Jesus meant. But now you are saying that there really is a hierarchy within the Trinity. Wouldn’t that mean different levels of power?

Jesus reveals the Father. The Spirit teaches man what it has learned from Jesus. It is in these distinctions that the Second Person of the trinity Incarnated as the only begotten Son. It is how the Spirit is distinct from the Son that He brings to mind what Jesus taught and reveals Truth to man untill the Church has recieved it in it’s entirety.

“until the Church has received it in its entirety”…so this means that the Church is continuing to learn, right? This is a good way to explain the developments in “discipline” since Vatican II and why it seems to some that there has been a departure from pre-Vat II teaching…i.e., the Church is still receiving these truths and they are still unfolding to our understanding. Am I correct?
.
Youer questions revolve around misunderstandings about how the trinity is united and how they are distinct. They are not distinct to us but it is in how they are distinct in relation to themselves that is revealed to us through the Christ Event.
The Persons of the trinity are distinct only to themselves. The Son is generated the Father is not. The Holy Spirit is not generated but is the spirated love given and received by the Father and Son.

I guess I need a better explanation of “generated”, as we conceive of this as a progression in time, which would mean that at one “time” the Father existed *before *the Son and the Son before the Spirit. Is there a better term to be used?

If your way of thinking about their unity is taken to it’s logical conclusion the Father and the Son and the holy Spirit became man.

That is a very good point! And more food for thought…

 

[Benadam]

Originally Posted by K C forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
-

I do know about “glorified” bodies. However, what “foretastes” do you mean?

*Contemplative prayer. Prayer that the Lord joins and lifts up in union with Him. The mystical union.I believe there are contemplatives in monastaries. in the field suffering, perhaps an ordinary Joe or few recieving a test that will reveal that their cause was with God, are experiencing the view united to the Father. What can only be fully experienced if glorified. Technically they are recieving a measure of their purging before they die. *

I did not realize that the Father actually IS greater than the Son or that the Son IS greater than the Spirit. Is this actual theology? But if this is true, then the Father must have preceded the Son and they both preceded the Spirit. Yet Jesus existed within the Godhead before He assumed human flesh too. (“Before Abraham came to be I AM.”)

*God eternally generates Cognizance of Himself. God knowing God. God is knowing God, always was, always will. This knowing is God’s word and why Jesus said He reveals the Father. When you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father. God knowing God spirates the 3rd Person who proceeds from them as One God. All three always were. *

I always thought that Jesus said “The Father is greater than I,” ONLY to demonstrate His sublime humility and, even more, His great LOVE for the Father. Anyone who truly loves believes the beloved to be greater than the lover himself - that is the lover feels humbled before the object of his love. So that is how I interpreted what Jesus meant. But now you are saying that there really is a hierarchy within the Trinity. Wouldn’t that mean different levels of power?

Their greatness is really only relative to themselves. It’s expression on earth is the experience of dignity within family that comes naturally. A father is naturally accepted as greater by a son.

“until the Church has received it in its entirety”…so this means that the Church is continuing to learn, right? This is a good way to explain the developments in “discipline” since Vatican II and why it seems to some that there has been a departure from pre-Vat II teaching…i.e., the Church is still receiving these truths and they are still unfolding to our understanding. Am I correct?

.

Well I should have said in as much as we can recieve which ultimately pertains to our nature. The Church preserves the True Faith like Mary and stores things in her heart and ponders them as events unfold and reveal truth about the moment. I see Vatican II like the door that opened in front of Peter. As soon as it was a memory it seems Satan was distorting it’s meaning. As the Church suffers it experiences a purgatory on earth and is lifted up.

I guess I need a better explanation of “generated”, as we conceive of this as a progression in time, which would mean that at one “time” the Father existed before the Son and the Son before the Spirit. Is there a better term to be used?

I’ll try to do it justice.

If a person can claim to have always been and be uncreated that person can claim to be God. If that Person is God’s own self knowing Himself, it’s something like God reproducing His kind. Or visa versa. A reproduction of the self so to speak. But there was never a time when God didn’t know Himself. So never a time God wasn’t generating the Son.

 

[NHInsider]

Since we know that the Trinity is inseparable and that Jesus said that the Father was always with Him, what does the Church have to say about today’s reading? That is, WHY did Jesus say that in order for the Holy Spirit to be present among men, Jesus would have to leave them??

The Trinity is inseparable, but there are many ways that God is present among us. So it is true to say that God is everywhere (Omnipresence) and also true to say that God is Present in the Tabernacle in a particular way. The Incarnation was a unique event - The Word made Flesh. Jesus was God’s physical presence on earth.

The Church is the Body of Christ - God’s physical presence on earth. The “birthday” of the Church is Pentecost - when God sent His Spirit to indwell the Church*, to continue the Presence of Christ on earth. It was inappropriate (avoiding the word “impossible” when discussing God) for this to take place until after Jesus Incarnate Body was taken up, because that would have “duplicated” His presence.

This is connected with another statement in the same discourse when He says “Greater things than I do, you will do.” - Because the Church makes Him present all over the world simultaneously, while in the Incarnation He was limited in time and space.

(*This is distinct from the particular ordination gift of the Spirit to the Apostles by Jesus - the Pentecost outpouring is for all believers.)

 

[Answersplease]

God’s ways are higher than man’s ways, and God’s thoughts are higher than man’s thoughts.

If you can’t figure out how God can be in two places at once, it is because you don’t have the power and mind of God.

 

[K_C]

Originally Posted by K C forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
-

*Contemplative prayer. Prayer that the Lord joins and lifts up in union with Him. The mystical union.I believe there are contemplatives in monastaries. in the field suffering, perhaps an ordinary Joe or few recieving a test that will reveal that their cause was with God, are experiencing the view united to the Father. What can only be fully experienced if glorified. Technically they are recieving a measure of their purging before they die. *

Well, I think that we are ALL receiving a measure of purging before we die, don’t you? But I think I see your point. However, I don’t believe that any “are experiencing the view united to the Father” if by that you mean they SEE the Father, for that is reserved for the saints in heaven. However, I don’t doubt that saints on earth do experience some of the attributes of glorified bodies because we have heard that some of them could bi-locate and levitate, for example.

*God eternally generates Cognizance of Himself. God knowing God. God is knowing God, always was, always will. This knowing is God’s word and why Jesus said He reveals the Father. When you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father. God knowing God spirates the 3rd Person who proceeds from them as One God. All three always were. *

Their greatness is really only relative to themselves. It’s expression on earth is the experience of dignity within family that comes naturally. A father is naturally accepted as greater by a son.

Yes, isn’t it wonderful? - GOD IS A FAMILY! I think that we should restate this fact often since the family is so much under attack today!

Well I should have said in as much as we can recieve which ultimately pertains to our nature. The Church preserves the True Faith like Mary and stores things in her heart and ponders them as events unfold and reveal truth about the moment. I see Vatican II like the door that opened in front of Peter. As soon as it was a memory it seems Satan was distorting it’s meaning. As the Church suffers it experiences a purgatory on earth and is lifted up.

Yes, I agree. But I was referring to the fact that, especially since Vat II, the Church is developing revealed truths and their application to the present age. Some complain that Vat II changed past truths, but I have found that, on the contrary, the applications of these truths are changing as the core of the truth becomes clearer. That is what your earier statement recalled to me.

I’ll try to do it justice.

If a person can claim to have always been and be uncreated that person can claim to be God. If that Person is God’s own self knowing Himself, it’s something like God reproducing His kind. Or visa versa. A reproduction of the self so to speak. But there was never a time when God didn’t know Himself. So never a time God wasn’t generating the Son.

That IS much clearer. Thank you so much for your insights!

 

[K_C]

The Trinity is inseparable, but there are many ways that God is present among us. So it is true to say that God is everywhere (Omnipresence) and also true to say that God is Present in the Tabernacle in a particular way. The Incarnation was a unique event - The Word made Flesh. Jesus was God’s physical presence on earth.

Yes, all true.

The Church is the Body of Christ - God’s physical presence on earth. The “birthday” of the Church is Pentecost - when God sent His Spirit to indwell the Church*, to continue the Presence of Christ on earth. It was inappropriate (avoiding the word “impossible” when discussing God) for this to take place until after Jesus Incarnate Body was taken up, because that would have “duplicated” His presence.

Hmmm…that’s an interesting viewpoint.

This is connected with another statement in the same discourse when He says “Greater things than I do, you will do.” - Because the Church makes Him present all over the world simultaneously, while in the Incarnation He was limited in time and space.

Yes, I noticed the continuation. In fact, it also presents another question: Since Jesus said that those who believe in Him would do “greater things” than He, why is it that we are unable to do these things? Do you think that this reflects the fact that our faith is a disappointment to God? (I do know that a few saints have/can do such things, but they are rather rare these days. I wonder why??)

 

[K_C]

God’s ways are higher than man’s ways, and God’s thoughts are higher than man’s thoughts.

If you can’t figure out how God can be in two places at once, it is because you don’t have the power and mind of God.

Thanks for your post, but my question was - Since God is indivisible, why did Jesus say that it was necessary for Him to leave us in order for the Holy Spirit to be present, i.e. wasn’t the Spirit already present in Him as was God the Father?

 

[K_C]

It is to do with the fact that the Holy Spirit would not come until Our Lord has been crucified.

Paul

Yes, but the question is: WHY? As was just suggested here, perhaps it was because Jesus had to mend the division between earth and heaven (by His passion) before the Holy Spirit could indwell humanity and convey the love of Christ to our hearts and minds. Perhaps it was because God wanted the Spirit to have His own “special phase” in our history - that time which followed the life of Christ on earth (?)

 

[Benadam]

Yes, but the question is: WHY? As was just suggested here, perhaps it was because Jesus had to mend the division between earth and heaven (by His passion) before the Holy Spirit could indwell humanity and convey the love of Christ to our hearts and minds. Perhaps it was because God wanted the Spirit to have His own “special phase” in our history - that time which followed the life of Christ on earth (?)

K C, I think both are true. and it got me thinking. When the Father revealed to Peter that Jesus is His Son Peter experienced Jesus as ‘a Son’ of the Father. Lifted up in union with the Father Peter knew in that moment, Jesus as the Father knows Jesus. As a Son. Afterwards Peter fell for the most common diabolical deception attached to divine revelation given personally. As soon as it was over Satan distorted the meaning of the experience by tweaking Peter’s ego so that it’s meaning included himself. And Peter responded to the events immediately following as a person granted a fatherly role in relation to Jesus and began remonstrating with Jesus about what He shouldn’t do. . A revelation of Jesus became a revelation of self to Peter and that is the primary deception of anti-christ. So Jesus hit him up with the get thee behind me rebuke.

Maybe there will be a phase in the future that the Father has His own special phase too. I remember a passage that roughly went like this;

seeing the wounds we afflicted on Him we will weep for Him as for an only son.