The Hope of Eternal Life Lutheran / Catholic dialogue On Purgatory

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JonNC

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The recently released document in the title of the thread seems to offer some interesting food for though t for Lutherans and Catholics, and our quest for reconciliation. It is a long document which I am still working my way through, and I invite others to do so, as well.

usccb.org/seia/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life.pdf

On Purgatory
  1. Common Affirmations
  2. When misconceptions are stripped away and the continuing reflections of our churches are taken into account, the difference between our churches on the doctrine of purgatory is seen in a new light.
    Agreements
  3. Catholics and Lutherans agree:
    **1. During this life, the justified “are not exempt from a lifelong struggle against the
    contradiction to God within the selfish desires of the old Adam (see Gal.
    5:16; Rom. 7:7-10)” (JDDJ, 28; cf. Trent DS 1515 and 1690 and LC,
    Baptism, paras. 65-67236).
  4. This struggle is rightly described by a variety of categories: e.g., penitence,
    healing, daily dying and rising with Christ.
  5. Borne in Christ, the painful aspects of this struggle are a participation in Christ’s
    suffering and death. Catholic teachings call these pains temporal
    punishments; the Lutheran Confessions grant they can, “in a formal
    sense,”237 be called punishments.
  6. This ongoing struggle does not indicate an insufficiency in Christ’s saving work,
    but is an aspect of our being conformed to Christ and his saving work.238
  7. The effects of sin in the justified are fully removed only as they die, undergo
    judgment, and encounter the purifying love of Christ. The justified are
    transformed from their condition at death to the condition with which they
    will be blessed in eternal glory. All, even martyrs and saints of the highest
    order, will find the encounter with the Risen Christ transformative in ways
    beyond human comprehension.
  8. Christ transforms those who enter into eternal life. This change is a work of
    God’s grace. It can be rightly understood as our final and perfect
    conformation to Christ (Phil 3:21). The fire of Christ’s love burns away all
    that is incompatible with living in the direct presence of God. It is the
    complete death of the old person, leaving only the new person in Christ.
  9. Scripture tells us little about the process of the transformation from this life to
    entrance into eternal life. Categories of space and time can be applied only
    analogously**.
Distinctive Teachings
208. Catholics are committed to the doctrine of purgatory, i.e., to a process of purgation that occurs in or after death, and to the possibility that the living by their prayers can aid the departed undergoing this process. This aid will be discussed in the next section of this report, but here it should be noted that, for Catholic teaching, purgatory must be so understood as not to exclude this possibility.
239 As the survey of Catholic teaching on purgatory above shows, there is no binding Catholic doctrine on the spatial or temporal character of purgatory, on how many
Christians go through purgatory, or on the intensity or extent of their sufferings. While all the justified are transformed by eternal glory, Catholics admit the possibility that some people incur no further punishment after death.
209. Lutherans teach that all the justified remain sinners unto death (JDDJ, 29). Sin and the effects of sin in those who die in Christ will be removed prior to entrance into eternal glory. In effect, they teach the reality of purgation, even if not as a distinct intermediate state. The rejection by the Lutheran Reformers of the doctrine of purgatory as they knew it focused on practices and abuses perceived as bound up with this teaching. They judged that the doctrine of purgatory obscured the gospel of free grace. The Confessions explicitly express a willingness to discuss purgatory if the doctrine were separated from these practices and abuses, although at the same time expressing doubt about the biblical foundation of any such teaching (SA II, 2.14).
210. The differences between Catholic and Lutheran teaching on purgatory thus focus on 1) how the living relate to those undergoing this purgation, and 2) the extent and explicit character of the binding teaching on purgation and purgatory. The more explicit the binding teaching, the greater the difficulty Lutherans have in seeing this teaching as biblical and thus binding. We have seen in this dialogue that explicit Catholic doctrine on purgatory is more limited than often recognized. As the Catholic attitude toward differences with the Orthodox indicates, these two differences are not entirely separable. Common practices toward the dead can provide an assurance that permits a diversity in formulation. The following discussion of prayer for the dead must thus be considered in assessing the ecumenical significance of Catholic-Lutheran understandings of purgatory.
Convergences
211. Today, Lutheran and Catholic teaching integrates purgation with death, judgment, and
the encounter with Christ. Recent Catholic and Lutheran understandings of purgation sound remarkably similar. While the word “purgatory” remains an ecumenically charged term, and for many Catholics and Lutherans signals a sharp division, our work in this round has shown that our churches’ understandings of how the justified enter eternal glory are closer than expected.
212. In light of the analysis given above, this dialogue believes that the topic of purgation,
in and of itself, need not divide our communions
.240
Curious as to what Catholics, Lutherans, and others if they so choose, think.

Jon
 
The recently released document in the title of the thread seems to offer some interesting food for though t for Lutherans and Catholics, and our quest for reconciliation. It is a long document which I am still working my way through, and I invite others to do so, as well.

usccb.org/seia/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life.pdf

On Purgatory

Curious as to what Catholics, Lutherans, and others if they so choose, think.

Jon
Jon, first of all thank you for this. It is extremely interesting and hopeful. I’m really not quite sure what to say at this point but am very interested in what you and other Lutherans think about this. I have always believed that the abuses against which Luther spoke have clouded the reality of our doctrines.
 
What do you mean here, Steve?
What I mean is that Luther threw the baby out with the bath water. I understand his opposition to the abuses that were prevalent among some of the clergy in his time. The abuses, however, were not Catholic teaching. They were abuses. The selling of indulgences springs to mind when considering those in purgatory. I don’t pretend to be an expert on Luther by any stretch of the imagination. When the bias is stripped away though, I think Lutherans, as evidenced by the quote from Jon, were never that far apart. Purgatory became a bad word, when in reality, they pretty much believed the same thing.
 
But if you read the Pagan Servitude of the Church/Babylonian Captivity and a host of other pieces that Luther wrote, Luther, Melancthon and his contemporaries believed that many of the things the Church taught and continue to teach were not merely abuses but incorrect theology…It went further than just some indulgences. Justification, the priesthood of all believers, sola scriptura/sola fide/sola gratia, the number of sacraments, etc.
What I mean is that Luther threw the baby out with the bath water. I understand his opposition to the abuses that were prevalent among some of the clergy in his time. The abuses, however, were not Catholic teaching. They were abuses. The selling of indulgences springs to mind when considering those in purgatory. I don’t pretend to be an expert on Luther by any stretch of the imagination. When the bias is stripped away though, I think Lutherans, as evidenced by the quote from Jon, were never that far apart. Purgatory became a bad word, when in reality, they pretty much believed the same thing.
 
The recently released document in the title of the thread seems to offer some interesting food for though t for Lutherans and Catholics, and our quest for reconciliation. It is a long document which I am still working my way through, and I invite others to do so, as well.

usccb.org/seia/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life.pdf

On Purgatory

Curious as to what Catholics, Lutherans, and others if they so choose, think.

Jon
Hi, Jon…thanks for the article.

So, what are Lutherans going to call their concept of Purgatory?

From what you quoted, Luther was not against the doctrine, he was against the practices. How did it ever get too far that some Protestant denoms say there is no purgatory, in whatever sense it is-Catholic or Lutheran?
 
Hi, Jon…thanks for the article.

So, what are Lutherans going to call their concept of Purgatory?

From what you quoted, Luther was not against the doctrine, he was against the practices. How did it ever get too far that some Protestant denoms say there is no purgatory, in whatever sense it is-Catholic or Lutheran?
Hi pablope,
Actually, I don’t think Lutherans still would be willing to claim Purgatory as an intermediate place/state, as that, from our viewpoint, lacks scriptural explicitness. I have always understood, though, that Lutheran teaching has expressed the belief that nothing sinful enters Heaven, that upon death there is a cleansing.

In short, the document - still working my way through it - in many ways expresses my belief for many years, that the main difference are, the intermediate place/state, and the other practices that surround it. There is another section about prayer for the dead, which is related, that also seems to have some convergence. I plan to post the main statements regarding that in another thread, unless someone else beats me to it. 😃

Jon
 
Curious as to what Catholics, Lutherans, and others if they so choose, think.

Jon
Looks encouraging!!

I have never been to a Lutheran Service. Before coming to CA I always presumed, because I had been told so, that Anglicans were most similar Catholic. However, I have come to think that Lutheranism is much closer to Catholicism (no insult intended).

I have enjoyed the Christian charity of every single Lutheran I have encountered on this board. They all seem genuinely interested in dialog with Catholics. 👍
 
=mark a;7715346]Looks encouraging!!
It does, doesn’t it, Mark.
I have never been to a Lutheran Service. Before coming to CA I always presumed, because I had been told so, that Anglicans were most similar Catholic. However, I have come to think that Lutheranism is much closer to Catholicism (no insult intended).
No insult intended? You mean for Anglicans, or for Lutherans? :rotfl:
Honestly, Mark, none taken. In fact, compliment accept. 😉
I have enjoyed the Christian charity of every single Lutheran I have encountered on this board. They all seem genuinely interested in dialog with Catholics. 👍
You are very kind. Thanks.

Jon
 
I’m working my way through it as well. My first impression is that it is carefully thought out and does a good job of explaining both Lutheran and Catholic beliefs and, in some way, narrowing the gaps that our forefathers created between our two traditions.
 
So Jon is just weeks away from believing in indulgences! 😃
Hi pablope,
Actually, I don’t think Lutherans still would be willing to claim Purgatory as an intermediate place/state, as that, from our viewpoint, lacks scriptural explicitness. I have always understood, though, that Lutheran teaching has expressed the belief that nothing sinful enters Heaven, that upon death there is a cleansing.

In short, the document - still working my way through it - in many ways expresses my belief for many years, that the main difference are, the intermediate place/state, and the other practices that surround it. There is another section about prayer for the dead, which is related, that also seems to have some convergence. I plan to post the main statements regarding that in another thread, unless someone else beats me to it. 😃

Jon
 
But if you read the Pagan Servitude of the Church/Babylonian Captivity and a host of other pieces that Luther wrote, Luther, Melancthon and his contemporaries believed that many of the things the Church taught and continue to teach were not merely abuses but incorrect theology…It went further than just some indulgences. Justification, the priesthood of all believers, sola scriptura/sola fide/sola gratia, the number of sacraments, etc.
Well, I was really referring to the Purgatory issue. I’m also treading in dangerous water here because I am certainly no expert on Luther, but I do realize that there are more issues, as you have pointed out.
 
Have a blessed weekend, Steve!🙂
Well, I was really referring to the Purgatory issue. I’m also treading in dangerous water here because I am certainly no expert on Luther, but I do realize that there are more issues, as you have pointed out.
 
I have never been to a Lutheran Service. Before coming to CA I always presumed, because I had been told so, that Anglicans were most similar Catholic. However, I have come to think that Lutheranism is much closer to Catholicism (no insult intended).

I have enjoyed the Christian charity of every single Lutheran I have encountered on this board. They all seem genuinely interested in dialog with Catholics. 👍
At my church, the service is nearly identical to the Catholic Mass. We use kneelers and the whole deal…that seems to surprise some people for some reason. Also, there is a Lutheran Church a couple towns over that even does Vespers & Compline every Saturday, and they have weekly confession and absolution times. 🙂

I can’t speak for every Lutheran, but I thoroughly enjoy learning about the traditions of the Catholic Church. I have also noticed that as the ELCA gets more liberal, a lot of Lutherans seem to be coming to the LCMS, and also seem to be interested in the CC. Just an observation.

Anywho, Jon, thanks for this post! It’s very interesting! 👍

Peace and blessings,
Julie
 
Hi pablope,
Actually, I don’t think Lutherans still would be willing to claim Purgatory as an intermediate place/state, as that, from our viewpoint, lacks scriptural explicitness. I have always understood, though, that Lutheran teaching has expressed the belief that nothing sinful enters Heaven, that upon death there is a cleansing.

In short, the document - still working my way through it - in many ways expresses my belief for many years, that the main difference are, the intermediate place/state, and the other practices that surround it. There is another section about prayer for the dead, which is related, that also seems to have some convergence. I plan to post the main statements regarding that in another thread, unless someone else beats me to it. 😃

Jon
Thanks, Jon…

Another question just came to me…Do Lutherans also believe in the expiation of sins even while still alive? The cleansing can also occur prior to death, not just after death, as you have stated also is believed by Lutherans.

Pablope
 
So Jon is just weeks away from believing in indulgences! 😃
:whacky:

Just had an idea, Gurney…when Jon starts believing in indulgences, and for any Lutheran for that matter, we should, if allowed by the Church, donate indulgences, bank them, and grant them to Lutherans who wish some, so that they do not start from scratch…:D:hmmm::aok:
 
Are you kidding? Bank them for me, brother pablo! I’m the sinner in this forum who really needs it! LOL…I’m a mess. LOL

I tend to always feel that nobody needs Christ like yours truly here! 😦
:whacky:

Just had an idea, Gurney…when Jon starts believing in indulgences, and for any Lutheran for that matter, we should, if allowed by the Church, donate indulgences, bank them, and grant them to Lutherans who wish some, so that they do not start from scratch…:D:hmmm::aok:
 
Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1
So Jon is just weeks away from believing in indulgences!
:whacky:

Just had an idea, Gurney…when Jon starts believing in indulgences, and for any Lutheran for that matter, we should, if allowed by the Church, donate indulgences, bank them, and grant them to Lutherans who wish some, so that they do not start from scratch…:D:hmmm::aok:
Hey guys,
I already do believe in indulgences, as I’m willing to indulge your humor at my expense. 😃 😛

But seriously, the document does address the issue of indulgences, beginning at para. 264.
In concludes in this way:
As with masses for the dead, indulgences appear in a different light when understood within the context of the solidarity of all the justified with Christ and each other. Lutherans in this dialogue have come to see that the intent behind the contemporary practice of indulgences is an expression of an appeal to the mercy of Christ. Whether indulgences do or can adequately embody that intent remains a genuine question for Lutherans. Lutherans also ask whether indulgences are so open to abuse and misunderstanding that their evangelical intent is obscured.
**Nevertheless, since the practice of indulgences has not been seen as required for communion with the Catholic Church, Lutherans need not adopt these practices for the sake of such communion. Ecumenical rapprochement requires, however, that Lutherans not condemn Catholic teaching about the practice of indulgences as inherently contrary to the Gospel.**271. This dialogue has not tried to settle the questions of the sacrificial character of the
eucharistic liturgy or of indulgences in themselves, but is looking only at their application to the dead. As the relation of the mass and indulgences to the dead is seen in the context ofcommunion in the grace of Christ, many Catholic understandings and practices become clearer to Lutherans as expressions of dependence on Christ. Any final judgment by Lutherans on masses for the dead and the application of indulgences to the dead is dependent upon judgments about the nature of the eucharistic liturgy and of Christian penance.
Some might see this as nuanced and shaky. I see it as a starting point.

Jon
 
I’m razzing you, Jon! 🙂 I personally can’t swallow indulgences. There’s a lot I’m not swallowing and I’m hanging on to Catholicism by dental floss, the thinnest of threads, not doing a very good job LOL…
Hey guys,
I already do believe in indulgences, as I’m willing to indulge your humor at my expense. 😃 😛

But seriously, the document does address the issue of indulgences, beginning at para. 264.
In concludes in this way:

Some might see this as nuanced and shaky. I see it as a starting point.

Jon
 
I’m razzing you, Jon! 🙂 I personally can’t swallow indulgences. There’s a lot I’m not swallowing and I’m hanging on to Catholicism by dental floss, the thinnest of threads, not doing a very good job LOL…
So gurnery,
What do you think of the content of the document, or at least the parts I’ve posted?

Jon
 
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