The horrible truth about euthenasia and organ donation/harvesting

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liberal friend:
oh I forgot to add that “brain dead” patients who are in comas have to be given anastetics as they are being sawed open in order for their organs to be removed…if they are actually dead (as they are legelly) then why the pain killers???
o gee! soylent green. guess what kind of people get the “harvested” organs. poor or wealthy?
 
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wcknight:
Personally I think it’s awfully selfish not to be a donor.

Sure there may be abuses, but for the most part folks are dead/ brain dead by the time their organs are harvested.

Doctors who abuse this may be murderers, but far more good comes from this than the potential for abuses.

IF I am in a fatal accident and I’m essentially brain dead, if my organs can help save someone else’s life or allow a blind person to see then by all means harvest whatever you can.

We can not let fear rule our lives. There is always the possibility of someone abusing the system. When God says my time is up, I have no qualms about helping someone else out. IF my time were not up, I would not have gotten into a fatal accident in the first place.

Who knows the very decision to help someone with your organs could be the factor that saves you a significant amount of time in Purgatory OR it may be the difference between Heaven/Purgatory and you know where…
wc
A human being is dead when the heart and lungs have irreversibly ceased to function. That used to be the definition of death. Now because of organ donation, death has been redefined to mean brain death. Your body can be very much alive when your brain has ceased to function.

So the real issue for me, is when does the soul leave the body? When the brain dies, or when the heart & lungs die? People can be brain dead for sometimes years before their cardio-respiratory system fails. Common sense tells me the soul is in the body until the heart stops beating and the respiratory system fails.

If those vital organs, whose removal would cause death of the patient, can be removed at the moment of death, thus not causing death, then I have no problem with organ donation.
 
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paramedicgirl:
A human being is dead when the heart and lungs have irreversibly ceased to function. That used to be the definition of death. Now because of organ donation, death has been redefined to mean brain death. Your body can be very much alive when your brain has ceased to function.

So the real issue for me, is when does the soul leave the body? When the brain dies, or when the heart & lungs die? People can be brain dead for sometimes years before their cardio-respiratory system fails. Common sense tells me the soul is in the body until the heart stops beating and the respiratory system fails.

If those vital organs, whose removal would cause death of the patient, can be removed at the moment of death, thus not causing death, then I have no problem with organ donation.
It is my understanding that with brain death, the body can be kept alive only with artificial means – if those means are not applied, the heart and lungs cease to function.

The Church considers that such artificial means to prolong life are not morally required.
 
Has anyone seen anyone who is brain dead? I have. My husband’s grandfather was in a very bad accident last summer. A person who is brain dead will twitch, their eyes sometimes roll open. It was very emotional because to the family it seemed he was still there because we picture a brain dead person as paralyzed. They had a second opinion just to be sure and the diagnoses was the same. When they disconnected the respirator he died. The machine was keeping him alive.
 
vern humphrey:
It is my understanding that with brain death, the body can be kept alive only with artificial means – if those means are not applied, the heart and lungs cease to function.

The Church considers that such artificial means to prolong life are not morally required.
Yes, when the brainstem dies the control centers for regulating heartbeat and respiratory functions cease to work. This person is placed on ventilation, which maintains these functions, sometimes for much longer than medical doctors thought possible.

The moral question is, are there 2 deaths? Does death of the body or death of the brain constitiute biological death? Ever wondered which time is recorded on the death certificate? Does irreversible brain damage count as biologic death when the body still has signs of life (even though mechanical means is used to maintain that life?)

Most importantly, when does the Catholic Church say the soul leaves the body?
 
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paramedicgirl:
Yes, when the brainstem dies the control centers for regulating heartbeat and respiratory functions cease to work. This person is placed on ventilation, which maintains these functions, sometimes for much longer than medical doctors thought possible.

The moral question is, are there 2 deaths? Does death of the body or death of the brain constitiute biological death? Ever wondered which time is recorded on the death certificate? Does irreversible brain damage count as biologic death when the body still has signs of life (even though mechanical means is used to maintain that life?)

Most importantly, when does the Catholic Church say the soul leaves the body?
The Church does not say when the soul leaves the body. Indeed a case could be made for saying the soul is outside the ordinary rules of time and space, both when entering and leaving.

But the Church does consider organ donation to be a morally correct act (albeit with controls guarenteeing the dignity and sanctity of the person.
[2278](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2278.htm’)😉 Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of “over-zealous” treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one’s inability to impede it is merely accepted. The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected.
Given the above, it would be difficult to say that the Church only countinences organ removal under conditions which would render the organs unuseable.
 
vern humphrey:
But the Church does consider organ donation to be a morally correct act (albeit with controls guarenteeing the dignity and sanctity of the person.)
I would qualify that to say that the Church considers organ donation after death to be morally permissible as well as a good and charitable act.

But paramedicgirl brings up a good point. When does death occur? Traditionally it has been said to occur when the soul leaves the body. The church hasn’t, to my knowledge, stated any position with respect to the various definitions of death, including brain death.

If indeed, the ventilator is disconnected, and the patient does not breathe and begins to shut down, he is apparently dying. I would think that the ventilator could at that point be reconnected for the purpose of keeping the organs sufficiently alive as to be removed for donation. But one wants to be sure that death has occurred.

In former times, people worried about being inadvertently buried alive. (That was one reason for wake services.) Now, the worry is more that one might be declared dead too soon. I just hope the medics know what they are doing.
 
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JimG:
I would qualify that to say that the Church considers organ donation after death to be morally permissible as well as a good and charitable act.

But paramedicgirl brings up a good point. When does death occur? Traditionally it has been said to occur when the soul leaves the body. The church hasn’t, to my knowledge, stated any position with respect to the various definitions of death, including brain death.

If indeed, the ventilator is disconnected, and the patient does not breathe and begins to shut down, he is apparently dying. I would think that the ventilator could at that point be reconnected for the purpose of keeping the organs sufficiently alive as to be removed for donation. But one wants to be sure that death has occurred.

In former times, people worried about being inadvertently buried alive. (That was one reason for wake services.) Now, the worry is more that one might be declared dead too soon. I just hope the medics know what they are doing.
There are various tests, including flashing a light in the eye to see if there is any automatic reaction. Some of these are dictated by law, and define legal death. The Church accepts them as adequate.

The Church probably will never definitively say when the soul leaves the body – because there is no way of knowing.
 
my dads life was saved by a man who died in a car crash and that gave my dad another chance at life so i dont think its wrong
 
I didn’t check the box when I last renewed my license, for this reason. Not so much for my sake, but I would not want to promote murder on the part of my relatives and the doctors, which is what I would be doing, apparently.
 
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rayne89:
Thank you to the last few posters I was beginning to lose hope. I can’t debate this subject with people though. I get too emotional.
God Bless.
You are in my prayers Rayne:)

I personally will not sign anything that states my wish to be an organ donor. But I have informed my immediate family so that they can make that call if something were to happen to me.

I want my organs to go to someone who needs them, but I don’t want the docs cutting any corners on my care.

Malia
 
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JimG:
I would qualify that to say that the Church considers organ donation after death to be morally permissible as well as a good and charitable act.

But paramedicgirl brings up a good point. When does death occur? Traditionally it has been said to occur when the soul leaves the body. The church hasn’t, to my knowledge, stated any position with respect to the various definitions of death, including brain death.

If indeed, the ventilator is disconnected, and the patient does not breathe and begins to shut down, he is apparently dying. I would think that the ventilator could at that point be reconnected for the purpose of keeping the organs sufficiently alive as to be removed for donation. But one wants to be sure that death has occurred.

In former times, people worried about being inadvertently buried alive. (That was one reason for wake services.) Now, the worry is more that one might be declared dead too soon. I just hope the medics know what they are doing.
There is so much global controversy on this issue among medical professionals, ethicists, lay people, & scientists for a good reason. Traditionally the soul was considered to leave the body when bilogical death occured, that is the cessation of functioning of the cardio-pulmonary system.

Think about this: You are in an accident in a rural area and have suffered severe trauma to your head. You are found with a pulse and shallow respirations, so you are ventilated manually on the way to the local hospital, which maintains life. Your pupils are unequal and do not react to light. You have no motor responses. You are brain dead. In the hospital, the doctors prepare you for rapid transport to a major hospital. No one has signed a death certificate yet, in fact they are maintaining what life you have by a variety of medical procedures.

Once in the major hospital, you are given a variety of tests to determine brain death. You are kept on a ventilator to maintain life during these procedures. The moral question here is has death occurred yet? Did death occur when your brain stopped functioning or is death going to occur when the doctors remove the organs?

I have transported this type of patient before, and they are still considered alive when we reach the hospital. They are still considered alive when we transport them out to a major hospital. No time of death has yet been recorded.

If an organ donor must be dead when the organs are removed, and brain death does not constitute biological death, then there is a moral dilemma. Different countries even have different definitions of brain death. Is it ethical to claim that the removal of vital organs is morally equivalent to “letting nature take its course?” This is not the same as allowing someone to die, as it is the removal of vital organs that kills the patient, not his or her disease or injury.

It’s no wonder there is so much controvery over this issue. Does a brain dead person still possess a soul? That is the million dollar question.
 
There’s nothing wrong with being an organ donor. But when a doctor only mantains human life like that just for the sake of the organs…that’s wrong and twisted. How low can we go? What purpose are we to society and (some) doctors? A combination of cells and complex organs designed and educated to be independent, make money, and add to society? Then when we’re dependent on someone then we no longer have a reason to live?! Oh but wait…we need your organs…you can live until we need them. (Oh thanks) Who cares about the soul and human dignity…

How often do we have to repeat “The end DOES NOT justify the means!”?

Just keep on praying! There is always hope in the Lord!
 
Feanaro's Wife:
You are in my prayers Rayne:)

I personally will not sign anything that states my wish to be an organ donor. But I have informed my immediate family so that they can make that call if something were to happen to me.

I want my organs to go to someone who needs them, but I don’t want the docs cutting any corners on my care.

Malia
This quote shows great wisdom! By letting those whom we trust make the call, we could be much more certain that the real purpose of organ donation would be achieved; that is, that someone might benefit from an organ of mine if my body had truly died and my spirit departed.
 
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crusader4life:
There’s nothing wrong with being an organ donor. But when a doctor only mantains human life like that just for the sake of the organs…that’s wrong and twisted. How low can we go? What purpose are we to society and (some) doctors? A combination of cells and complex organs designed and educated to be independent, make money, and add to society? Then when we’re dependent on someone then we no longer have a reason to live?! Oh but wait…we need your organs…you can live until we need them. (Oh thanks) Who cares about the soul and human dignity…

How often do we have to repeat “The end DOES NOT justify the means!”?

Just keep on praying! There is always hope in the Lord!
If you are an organ donor, and you get into that situation, they will keep you on the heart-lung machine while they prepare to harvest the organs – and there’s nothing wrong with that.

I had the sad duty of picking up a lady and a 3-year old child she was caring for and driving them to a city about 200 miles away – the child’s father was dying and the mother had called from the hospital and asked the child be brought to say goodbye to her daddy. The father was kept on the hear-lung machine long enough for his daughter to get there.

Was that a sin?
 
vern humphrey:
I had the sad duty of picking up a lady and a 3-year old child she was caring for and driving them to a city about 200 miles away – the child’s father was dying and the mother had called from the hospital and asked the child be brought to say goodbye to her daddy. The father was kept on the hear-lung machine long enough for his daughter to get there.

Was that a sin?
No this isn’t a sin. You’re not obliged to use extrodinary means to keep life going (this includes heart/lung machines and so on), but there’s nothing wrong with it either. You’re just obliged to keep the patient feed, (watered), clean, and comfortable as you best as you can. What you did was kind. You were letting a family say good bye and see and love the patient alive on earth for the last time. That’s respectful. And there was no selfishness in that. I’m only sorry you had to be in that situation. That would be tough. But good for you for being caring. Continue to follow Christ and His teachings!

What I find wrong with the other situation is that the reason why the patient was kept alive was not for the sake of life, and for the love of the patient and the family, but just simply for the organs.
 
I think that personally I would get a second opinion…not sure though…I have never been in this situation…and for that I thank God. It has got to be the most difficult decision to take someone off of the machines. I think if he is dead…then it is not wrong…he won’t come back. I think also though, that there are situations where people take their loved ones off the machines ASAP and I am not sure this is right. I would want to be sure they are gone.
 
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crusader4life:
No this isn’t a sin. You’re not obliged to use extrodinary means to keep life going (this includes heart/lung machines and so on), but there’s nothing wrong with it either. You’re just obliged to keep the patient feed, (watered), clean, and comfortable as you best as you can. What you did was kind. You were letting a family say good bye and see and love the patient alive on earth for the last time. That’s respectful. And there was no selfishness in that. I’m only sorry you had to be in that situation. That would be tough. But good for you for being caring. Continue to follow Christ and His teachings!

What I find wrong with the other situation is that the reason why the patient was kept alive was not for the sake of life, and for the love of the patient and the family, but just simply for the organs.
Now there you lost me. To donate organs is a good thing, a life-affirming thing, and the Church agrees.

Are we obliged to do this good, life-affirming thing in a manner that makes us likely to fail?
 
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