The Horror: This is Why Catholic Traditionalist Fear Pope Francis

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If you count that there are two Apples in a bag, are you saying that is an opinion?
Yes, it is an opinion. Even if everyone were to agree that there are two Apples in a bag, it is still an opinion.
Hmm? So I presume Jesus died and rose from the dead is just an opinion to you?
If a majority of people in the world are of the opinion that there is no God, does this make it a fact, or is it still only an opinion?
The grace of God leads me to believe that my opinion that Jesus did die and rise from the dead is correct, despite what evidence anyone else may put before me.
 
I’m thinking of some of our best and most beloved preachers and evangelists:

St. Paul

St. John

St. Augustine

St. Benedict

St. Bernard

St. Gregory

St. Dominic

St. Francis

St. Anthony of Padua

St. Vincent Ferrer

St. John of the Cross

St. Francis de Sales

St. Ignatius of Loyola

St. Francis Xavier

Bl. John Paul II

I’m trying to remember where during my 10 years of formation did I ever read any of them say to others:

You’re incorrect.

You’re wrong and I’m right.

You’re don’t know what you’re talking about

You’re simply dumb as a door nob.

I did read many statements by them that say:

The truth is ____________________________

A common mistake is ______________________________

Man believes that __________________________

Our faith tells us ________________________________

Jesus said _________________________________

Scriptures say ______________________________________

___________________ is not true.

I’m a sinner, because _____________________

They all seemed to focus on the message. They attracted many flies with their wisdom, whit, kindness, humility and their genuine love for their audience.
 
But this is not what you had originally said and complained of. Originally you accused the author of the article of having the audacity (in your mind) to claimthat Christ tolerated sinners (“adulterers”), as if this were some sort of scandal. It is not.
Why is there no scandal? The authors idea of tolerance is that Christ will not say anything against adulterous behavior. That is not just scandalous but false.
Christ did not humble himself, lay down his life, suffer and die for the devil. He did, however, for adulterers.
Redemption is offered for all men and women. But it has to be accepted. So while Christ died for all, people can choose not to accept it. To accept it, one must repent of ones sins, get baptized (or confess ones sins if already baptized) and persevere to the end to be saved.

You are trying to make this look like Redemption is automatically imputed to the soul of every man and woman.
 
I’m thinking of some of our best and most beloved preachers and evangelists:

St. Paul

St. John

St. Augustine

St. Benedict

St. Bernard

St. Gregory

St. Dominic

St. Francis

St. Anthony of Padua

St. Vincent Ferrer

St. John of the Cross

St. Francis de Sales

St. Ignatius of Loyola

St. Francis Xavier

Bl. John Paul II

I’m trying to remember where during my 10 years of formation did I ever read any of them say to others:

You’re incorrect.

You’re wrong and I’m right.

You’re don’t know what you’re talking about

You’re simply dumb as a door nob.

I did read many statements by them that say:

The truth is ____________________________

A common mistake is ______________________________

Man believes that __________________________

Our faith tells us ________________________________

Jesus said _________________________________

Scriptures say ______________________________________

___________________ is not true.

I’m a sinner, because _____________________

They all seemed to focus on the message. They attracted many flies with their wisdom, whit, kindness, humility and their genuine love for their audience.
I do not want to go in to too much detail and take these one by one but let me show you why are wrong from the very first three.

St. Paul : Scriptures say he admonished St. Peter himself for his behavior to avoid gentiles during meals.

St. John : In one of his letters warns against false teachers and asks the faithful to close the door and not even provide them any hospitality

St. Augustine : Wrote against heresy using harsh words (including “That is incorrect/wrong/and other terms of hyperbole”. Held a massa damnata theory of salvation that many today will cringe upon hearing.

We can go down the list but I suspect we will find similar results.
 
I do not want to go in to too much detail and take these one by one but let me show you why are wrong from the very first three.

St. Paul : Scriptures say he admonished St. Peter himself for his behavior to avoid gentiles during meals.

St. John : In one of his letters warns against false teachers and asks the faithful to close the door and not even provide them any hospitality

St. Augustine : Wrote against heresy using harsh words (including “That is incorrect/wrong/and other terms of hyperbole”. Held a massa damnata theory of salvation that many today will cringe upon hearing.

We can go down the list but I suspect we will find similar results.
All of them used very polite and respectful language and tone. We’re swerving away from that. That’s my point. I’m not trying to win an argument. I don’t do arguments, no body benefits.
 
All of them used very polite and respectful language and tone. We’re swerving away from that. That’s my point. I’m not trying to win an argument. I don’t do arguments, no body benefits.
I understand. But this idea that “polite language” is always needed is not always correct. St. Jerome is known to have used impolite language against his opponent, especially on Marian doctrine.

There is in fact many situations where the use of impolite language and aggressive behavior made the other party rethink out of shock. When we just follow the “polite” and “politically correct” language, we rarely challenge anyone to rethink their lives. Our words are just thrown back in the background and life continues on.

Jesus himself pulled some shockers of impoliteness when he compared a woman that wanted his help to a dog and also when he caused quiet the commotion at the Temple.

I think many today are forgetting that there is such a thing as Holy Anger as well.

What I am trying to say here without going around in circles is that the truth must be told with charity. But charity may require the truth to be told in an uncompromising way. Charity and politeness are not always friends and can be enemies.
 
You obviously have no idea what the SSPX accepts or rejects. If you did, you wouldn’t say that. Do you have any idea what a Una Cum Mass is ?

The unjust stigma hanging over the SSPX could be argued to be the 8th Delor of Mary.
The 8th Delor of Mary? Are you serious? Don’t you think that is a ludicrous exageration?
  1. The Prophecy of Simeon.
  2. The Flight into Egypt.
  3. The Loss of the Child Jesus
  4. The Meeting of Jesus and Mary on the Way of the Cross.
  5. The Crucifixion
  6. Jesus’ body Struck by a Lance, Taken Down from the Cross
  7. The Burial of Jesus.
    8. The removal of faculties from SSPX priests.
Do you really think the SSPX are that important?

Of course the SSPX are part of our Church, and of course most of them are good, decent Catholics. But let’s not forget that the SSPX are in the position they are in as a result of their own free choice. Pope Benedict lifted the excommunications of their bishops and then extended an olive branch to them, but they threw it back in his face. What more is the Church expected to do? Revise it’s position on Vatican II in order to appease the SSPX and have them return back to full communion with Rome? That’s just ludicrous.

The Church is asking no more of the SSPX than it asks of any other priest or bishop; to accept the rulings of Vatican II (as Catholics we are bound to accept this as it was an Ecumenical Council) and comply with Rome on this. The fact that the SSPX refuse to do so is their own choice. The Church has no option in this regard.

Of course we all hope that the SSPX see sense and return to full communion with Rome (as the FSSP are) but whether or not this happens is down to the SSPX.

The Church has been very fair to the SSPX. The excommunications were Latae sententiae, their bishops in effect excommunicated themselves, and Pope Benedict XVI showed extreme charity by lifting these excommunications. He then did all he could to try to welcome the SSPX back, but they refused to come back.
 
Therefore this idea that a strict Church drives people away is a myth. It has no evidence to support the claim other than those who complain that the they do not like the moral teachings of the Church.
Where is this concern coming from? Pope Francis has said nothing, nor given any indication that the moral position of the Church has, or will change, on any issues. It will not, it cannot.

All Pope Francis is doing is giving us all a prod about the Church doctrine of love for all our fellow man. The Church is not here to reject people or to turn away sinners. The Church is here to reach out to sinners and welcome them with open arms. Jesus did not say to sinners, " Unless you repent I will not welcome you. Unless you repent I will not eat with you. Unless you repent I will not love you." We are all called to be like Jesus. Pope Francis is leading us by example in this regard. We would do well to look, learn and follow his example.
 
Where is this concern coming from? Pope Francis has said nothing, nor given any indication that the moral position of the Church has, or will change, on any issues. It will not, it cannot.

All Pope Francis is doing is giving us all a prod about the Church doctrine of love for all our fellow man. The Church is not here to reject people or to turn away sinners. The Church is here to reach out to sinners and welcome them with open arms. Jesus did not say to sinners, " Unless you repent I will not welcome you. Unless you repent I will not eat with you. Unless you repent I will not love you." We are all called to be like Jesus. Pope Francis is leading us by example in this regard. We would do well to look, learn and follow his example.
How do you know that Jesus ate with unrepentant sinners? Didn’t Jesus avoid Pharisees and even when he attended their banquets, say nasty things to them?
 
Why is there no scandal? The author’s idea of tolerance is that Christ will not say anything against adulterous behavior.
Christ does tolerate sin because he tolerates sinners. The evidence that God tolerates sin is all around you. It is in fact glaringly obvious that He tolerates sin.

Moreover, if God did not tolerate sin He could not tolerate sinners; and we are all sinners and He not only tolerates us but even loves us.

Again, if the Lord did not to some extent tolerate sin, no one would even be alive. God is hardly incapable of ending the regime of sin: He could simply wipe out the entire human race. Obviously that is not the decision He has made in how to deal with sin and sinners.

Finally, the exact nature of the redemption has been debated in the Church for a long time. I am not going to presume to have the authority to settle it. Rather, I will follow what the Church’s Magisterium says and teaches about this subject as well as all else that she teaches about the Faith; for that is our bounden duty as Catholics, and in such matters the Church cannot err.
 
It feels like the Pope is stomping on pro-life workers while at the same time having a dance party with people who do work with the poor.
Code:
Anyone who, like Francis, has lived and worked among the poor, knows that there is no "dance party" among the chronically unemployed, in the slums of Argentina or anywhere in the world, or among the aged.  Roe v. Wade was decided in my adolescence, and I was always adamantly against it, but in my late 30s became reasons I was alienated from the *movement*, as were other Catholic opponents of abortion, was its lack of integration of reproductive issues with the other life issues, including poverty and war, which popes from Pius XII right through Benedict XVI had worked so hard to manifest. Whenever one sees two stickers on a car, one saying "Abortion stops a beating heart" and the saying "Army of One" or some other militaristic slogan, it goes a long way to defeating the unity of teaching.
T
 
How do you know that Jesus ate with unrepentant sinners? Didn’t Jesus avoid Pharisees and even when he attended their banquets, say nasty things to them?
Mark 2:15 - And as he sat at table in his house, many tax collectors and sinners were sitting with Jesus and his disciples; for there were many who followed him.

These sinners were sitting with Jesus and his disciples, they were not disciples of Jesus.

The in the following verse; Mark 2:16 - And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?

The latter quotation may give an indication as to part of the reason Jesus thought so poorly of the Pharisees. They criticised Jesus because he sat and ate with sinners.

Who are we to criticise Pope Francis as he tries to emulate Jesus as he invites sinners to sit with us? Are we to be like the Pharisees and criticise him for this, or ought we to follow the example he is setting for us?
 
Jaberwocky
But you can never at any random point in a persons life story, know whether this or that person is truly unrepentant. Only our Lord knows what the last words on the last page of the book of someone’s life are. The Church welcomes first and then later guides and instructs but, true conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit. It is a job too big and important for any of us, even the Pope.
 
Christ does tolerate sin because he tolerates sinners. The evidence that God tolerates sin is all around you. It is in fact glaringly obvious that He tolerates sin.

Moreover, if God did not tolerate sin He could not tolerate sinners; and we are all sinners and He not only tolerates us but even loves us.

Again, if the Lord did not to some extent tolerate sin, no one would even be alive. God is hardly incapable of ending the regime of sin: He could simply wipe out the entire human race. Obviously that is not the decision He has made in how to deal with sin and sinners.

Finally, the exact nature of the redemption has been debated in the Church for a long time. I am not going to presume to have the authority to settle it. Rather, I will follow what the Church’s Magisterium says and teaches about this subject as well as all else that she teaches about the Faith; for that is our bounden duty as Catholics, and in such matters the Church cannot err.
You are equivocating the term Tolerance here.

If you are not sure what I am speaking of. Can you answer this.

God tolerates and loves the devil, should you love and tolerate the devil?
 
Jaberwocky
But you can never at any random point in a persons life story, know whether this or that person is truly unrepentant. Only our Lord knows what the last words on the last page of the book of someone’s life are. The Church welcomes first and then later guides and instructs but, true conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit. It is a job too big and important for any of us, even the Pope.
Our job is to state the truth without holding back parts of it. That is not a big job.
 
Mark 2:15 - And as he sat at table in his house, many tax collectors and sinners were sitting with Jesus and his disciples; for there were many who followed him.

These sinners were sitting with Jesus and his disciples, they were not disciples of Jesus.

The in the following verse; Mark 2:16 - And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?

The latter quotation may give an indication as to part of the reason Jesus thought so poorly of the Pharisees. They criticised Jesus because he sat and ate with sinners.

Who are we to criticise Pope Francis as he tries to emulate Jesus as he invites sinners to sit with us? Are we to be like the Pharisees and criticise him for this, or ought we to follow the example he is setting for us?
The issue is not sinners. The issue is unrepentant sinners. If you want it in terms of the times of Jesus, the problem is with having Pharisees inside the Church.

When we welcome unrepentant sinners (we know them because they insist that their sinful lives and sins are goods) we welcome pharisees to are too prideful to accept that they are sinners.

You have presumed that the sinners in the world today are not like the Pharisees. That is not a valid assumption.
 
The issue is not sinners. The issue is unrepentant sinners. If you want it in terms of the times of Jesus, the problem is with having Pharisees inside the Church.

When we welcome unrepentant sinners (we know them because they insist that their sinful lives and sins are goods) we welcome pharisees to are too prideful to accept that they are sinners.

You have presumed that the sinners in the world today are not like the Pharisees. That is not a valid assumption.
The sinners sitting with Jesus and his disciples were not disciples of Jesus themselves. They had not accepted Jesus as their Lord, yet still he sat and ate with them.

The Pharisees saw this and displayed towards Jesus, a very similar attitude that some are now displaying towards Pope Francis. They are saying “Why does he sit with sinners?”

We should not turn anyone away from the Church. We should welcome all sinners (repentant and unrepentant) as Jesus did. To criticise Pope Francis of welcoming all sinners is to be like the Pharisees.
 
Our job is to state the truth without holding back parts of it. That is not a big job.
Maybe not but it is a job that is better suited for some than others. It is a serious job in that if done “incorrectly” or without grace can turn people away from the Church. Many of those who like to do it more harshly do just that.
 
Our job is to state the truth without holding back parts of it. That is not a big job.
Ok now I’m curiouse… If you beleive this as you are implying it then what is the point of practicing or having prudence? Isn’t having prudence or working to have prudence a virtue that we should be working on?
 
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