The Hutterer and Hutterisch (their language)

[Esdra]

Hi all,

as you may know, I am in a Anabaptist community and we are the descendants of the Hutterer (there are only very few “original Hutterer” left in Central Europe)
This is a Baptist community founded in South Tyrol (in the mean time Italy).

I am from North Tyrol (Austria) and I was so glad that I nearly started crying when I found just by chance in the internet a site of Anabaptists in Canada (they were persecuted in Europe and so many Hutterer moved to America [and also to other countries like Russia] in the 19th century).
Because I found out that they still speak South-Tyrolean Dialect (see link below), which is very close to my own dialect - at least the differences are so small that I can understand it without problems.

hbbookcentre.com/hutterischabibltschichtlen1.html

Hutterischa Bibel Tschichtlen 1 = in standard German Hutterische Bibelgeschichten = in English Hutterian Bible stories.

It’s so cute - and the best is, I can understand every single word!
I think if I am in the US ones, I will visit a Hutterian village.

Esdra

 

[Lee]

Congratulations on finding your people! How exciting it must be for you. Hope you get a chance to visit them soon.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Don’t know if these people are the same, but we have Hutterites here. All I know is that when we went to BC on vacation they were selling pies which we bought. My mother in law makes the best pies I’ve ever tasted, and these pies even beat my mother in law’s!! I’m thinking that I’d love to go back to BC just to buy a few of their (expensive) pies this summer

 

[Esdra]

Don’t know if these people are the same, but we have Hutterites here. All I know is that when we went to BC on vacation they were selling pies which we bought. My mother in law makes the best pies I’ve ever tasted, and these pies even beat my mother in law’s!! I’m thinking that I’d love to go back to BC just to buy a few of their (expensive) pies this summer

I think you are right loboto.

it must be Hutterites. Hutterer is German!

 

[LongJourney]

Well, I made a pledge to learn something new every day. I thought there were no Mennonites, of which there are many different flavors, left in Europe. We have many Amish in this area. They are so traditional they don’t use the automobile. And yes, many still speak a dialect of German, even after three hundred years.

Traditional German food is so good!!

 

[Contarini]

Well, I made a pledge to learn something new every day. I thought there were no Mennonites, of which there are many different flavors, left in Europe.

Anabaptist history is complicated, but I wouldn’t call the Hutterites “Mennonites” myself. The movement predates Menno’s movement (in fact Jacob Hutter was martyred at about the same time that Menno was abandoning the Catholic Church) and was never assimilated to it as other branches of Swiss/South German/Austrian Anabaptism were. The Hutterites and the Mennonites (with all the various flavors of the latter) are the two remnants of the original Anabaptist movement still existing (the “Brethren” and other groups that consider themselves Anabaptist adopted Anabaptist views later on). And there are Mennonites still existing in Europe. Many of them emigrated to Russia (and many of these later emigrated to the Americas because of persecution there).

Edwin

 

[Esdra]

Anabaptist history is complicated, but I wouldn’t call the Hutterites “Mennonites” myself. The movement predates Menno’s movement (in fact Jacob Hutter was martyred at about the same time that Menno was abandoning the Catholic Church) and was never assimilated to it as other branches of Swiss/South German/Austrian Anabaptism were. The Hutterites and the Mennonites (with all the various flavors of the latter) are the two remnants of the original Anabaptist movement still existing (the “Brethren” and other groups that consider themselves Anabaptist adopted Anabaptist views later on). And there are Mennonites still existing in Europe. Many of them emigrated to Russia (and many of these later emigrated to the Americas because of persecution there).

Edwin

Hi edwin,

very good post. Thank you. You pretty seem to know much about that topic.
Mennonites are actually from Northern Germany. They speak a sort of “Plattdeitsch” (a Northern German Dialect). Therefore it is VERY hard do understand for me.
Also the **Amish **are Mennonites and left the Mennonites quite early in the 17th century. Some Amish in the US still speak Swiss German (the Dialect of Bern), others use a Middle-German Dialect called Pfaelzisch (originiated in Rheinland-Pfalz, a county of Germany) with many English words in it. - However, I think Amish (at least what is called nowadays “Amish Dutch”) is easier to understand than Mennonite-Plattdietsch for me.

To compare Mennonite-Plattdietsch with Hutterite Hutterisch, have a look
here and watch the video (and then compare to the other audio file on the website in the previous post.
My dialect and the one of the Hutterites ar South German Dialects - it’s actually more similar to Swiss German [depending on where in South Germany (and Western Austria) you live] (although not many Tyroleans can understand the Swiss. I can. Even our pastor is from Switzerland! )
That’s pretty exciting, if I would go and visit the Hutterites in Canada I could talk my own dialect with them and I think they would be able to understand it!

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

2 the MODERATOR: Please erase the post above. (Oh, I hate your rule that you are only allowed to alternate your post only for 20 minutes!!) (And then erase this message here in red!)

Anabaptist history is complicated, but I wouldn’t call the Hutterites “Mennonites” myself. The movement predates Menno’s movement (in fact Jacob Hutter was martyred at about the same time that Menno was abandoning the Catholic Church) and was never assimilated to it as other branches of Swiss/South German/Austrian Anabaptism were. The Hutterites and the Mennonites (with all the various flavors of the latter) are the two remnants of the original Anabaptist movement still existing (the “Brethren” and other groups that consider themselves Anabaptist adopted Anabaptist views later on). And there are Mennonites still existing in Europe. Many of them emigrated to Russia (and many of these later emigrated to the Americas because of persecution there).

Edwin

Hi edwin,

very good post. Thank you. You pretty seem to know much about that topic.
Mennonites are actually from Northern Germany. They speak a sort of “Plattdeitsch” (a Northern German Dialect). Therefore it is VERY hard do understand for me.

Also the **Amish **are Mennonites and left the Mennonites quite early in the 17th century. Some Amish in the US still speak Swiss German (the Dialect of Bern), others use a Middle-German Dialect called Pfaelzisch (originiated in Rheinland-Pfalz, a county of Germany) with many English words in it. - However, I think Amish (at least what is called nowadays “Amish Dutch”) is easier to understand than Mennonite-Plattdietsch for me.

You are also right that the Hutterites are not Mennonites.
They are both Anabaptists 'though (this means that only credo-baptism is valid and so they also baptise Christians who were already baptised as infants).

I am actually not even sure what denomination I actually belong to. We are called “Evangelikale Freikirche” (Evangelical Free Church).
We are no Baptists (because there is a seperate Baptist community in Innsbruck, the capital of my home county Tyrol).
We are no Mennonites either (they are also seperate [but not to be found in the Tyrol]).
We are no Pentecostals (there are many small Pentecostal Churches here in the Tyrol).
So the only thing that remains is that we are Anabaptists. The problem with the English word Evangelicals is that in English also the Lutheran Churches are called Evangelical (this is no the Case in Austria). - I would say that the term “evangelikal” (evangelical) in German means Anabaptist. At least I think so. I only know that the president of the club “BEG” (Bund Evengelikaler Gemeinden = Association of Evangelical Churches) once said that we are the decendants of the Hutterites.

All “fundamentalists protestants” (and that’s very different than in the US, or in general in North America!) have no problems with each other here in Austria. They visit each other’s services and often meet for “open air services” or other meetings (like for prayer, where all Christian Churches are invited and they also come and pray together. Can you imagine that? Catholics, fundamentalist Protestants, Lutherans and Orthodox Christians are praying together? ) and often even evangelise together.

I don’t know why the fundemantalist protesants don’t get along with each other in America. The differences are minor (at least here in Austria)

To compare Mennonite-Plattdietsch with Hutterite Hutterisch, have a look
here and watch the video (and then compare to the other audio file on the website in the previous post.

My dialect and the one of the Hutterites ar South German Dialects - it’s actually more similar to Swiss German [depending on where in South Germany (and Western Austria) you live] (although not many Tyroleans can understand the Swiss. I can. Even our pastor is from Switzerland! )
That’s pretty exciting, if I would go and visit the Hutterites in Canada I could talk my own dialect with them and I think they would be able to understand it!

Esdra

 

[Contarini]

very good post. Thank you. You pretty seem to know much about that topic.

I have a Ph.D. in church history focusing on the Reformation. My dissertation is on Martin Bucer, a Protestant Reformer in Strassbourg who interacted with the Anabaptists quite a bit (Michael Sattler, Hans Denck, Pilgram Marpeck).

Mennonites are actually from Northern Germany.

Yes–northern Germany and the Netherlands. But as I understand it they more or less swallowed up the Swiss and south German Anabaptists (those who were in the tradition of Sattler and Marpeck). The Hutterites were the one group that managed to survive persecution and that also maintained an identity separate from the Mennonites. One speculation I’ve read is that the Amish-Mennonite split was in part a “revolt” by Swiss Anabaptists against the northern influences.

Also the **Amish **are Mennonites and left the Mennonites quite early in the 17th century. Some Amish in the US still speak Swiss German (the Dialect of Bern), others use a Middle-German Dialect called Pfaelzisch (originiated in Rheinland-Pfalz, a county of Germany) with many English words in it. - However, I think Amish (at least what is called nowadays “Amish Dutch”) is easier to understand than Mennonite-Plattdietsch for me.

Makes sense.

Are you saying that there aren’t any Mennonites proper in Switzerland anymore? I ask this because some of my wife’s ancestors were from the Bernese region and were Mennonites–I think they came to the U.S. in the 19th century (amy wife’s grandmother was born in this country but I think her parents were immigrants, or maybe her grandparents).

I am actually not even sure what denomination I actually belong to. We are called “Evangelikale Freikirche” (Evangelical Free Church).
We are no Baptists (because there is a seperate Baptist community in Innsbruck, the capital of my home county Tyrol).

Interesting. I’ve not spent a lot of time in Austria, but in Germany I got the impression that the Freikirche is basically Baptist. The difference may be between a broader “free church” identity and a stricter form of Baptist Christianity. But I’m not sure.

European Baptists tend to be of a gentler strand than many English-speaking Baptists, more Anabaptist than Calvinist on the whole. And in my experience Romanian Baptists see themselves as the counterparts of American evangelicals generally.

I would say that the term “evangelikal” (evangelical) in German means Anabaptist

Actually no, I’d say that “evangelikal” is a counterpart of “evangelical.” “Evangelisch” basically means “traditional Protestant.”

I can see why European evangelicals would emphasize the Anabaptist heritage.

At least I think so. I only know that the president of the club “BEG” (Bund Evengelikaler Gemeinden = Association of Evangelical Churches) once said that we are the decendants of the Hutterites.

I wonder how true that is in a strict historical sense. I can see why an Austrian evangelical would claim some kind of spiritual descent from the Hutterites. Evangelicals in Czechoslovakia (I use that anachronistic word because when I was there it was still Czechoslovakia–in fact I was in Slovakia on the day in 1992 when they voted to separate, and have unfortunately not been back since), in my experience, linked themselves with the Hussites.

But I think the actual Hutterites all left the Tyrol long ago. I wasn’t sure enough about this to contradict you when you said that you were one!

The Hutterites are actually quite a closed group who consider themselves the one true Church, if I’m not mistaken.

You might be interested also in the “Bruderhof” movement, a modern Christian group inspired by the Hutterites–they originated in Germany but I think that they also only exist in the English-speaking world now.

All “fundamentalists protestants” (and that’s very different than in the US, or in general in North America!) have no problems with each other here in Austria.

I think the word “fundamentalist” is misleading, since as you note it’s very different from American fundamentalism.

I was very drawn to European (particularly Romanian) evangelicalism at one time, seeing it as much preferable to any of the American versions. I idealized it too much, and eventually came to realize that I didn’t agree with any version of low/free-church Protestant theology. Hence I became an Anglican, but still with hankerings after Catholicism and/or Orthodoxy. I respect the Anabaptist strand in free-church evangelicalism very much, however.

Edwin

 

[Fair_Lady]

Hi Esdra,
I just stumbled across your thread and found it very interesting. I come from a Mennonite background and spoke only Plautdietsch until I started school. Unfortunately, once I got a taste of English, I refused to continue on with Plautdietsch and now I have a very limited vocabulary in that language.

A number of years ago, we raised chickens on our acreage and when it came time to butcher them, I found it rather overwhelming for the number of chickens I had. So I called a local Hutterite colony and lo and behold they agreed to do my butchering for me.

We loaded up the chickens in crates and drove the 30 or so kms. to the colony. It was early evening, when we arrived at the colony and the boss immediately went and rang a bell, which resulted in all the young women coming out of their units to gather at their “butchering” facility. They were then given the assignment to butcher our chickens on the spot and went to it without hesitation. Typically, I believe their evenings are set aside for church and leisure, so I wasn’t surprised to detect some minor displeasure at this unexpected assignment. But they persevered and got the job done in just a couple of hours.

What surprised me was that I could pick out a few words that they spoke here and there and actually understood them. All in all, it was a very interesting experience to see how they work.

 

[Esdra]

I have a Ph.D. in church history focusing on the Reformation. My dissertation is on Martin Bucer, a Protestant Reformer in Strassbourg who interacted with the Anabaptists quite a bit (Michael Sattler, Hans Denck, Pilgram Marpeck).

Oh, very intersting.

Yes–northern Germany and the Netherlands. But as I understand it they more or less swallowed up the Swiss and south German Anabaptists (those who were in the tradition of Sattler and Marpeck). The Hutterites were the one group that managed to survive persecution and that also maintained an identity separate from the Mennonites. One speculation I’ve read is that the Amish-Mennonite split was in part a “revolt” by Swiss Anabaptists against the northern influences.

I see. Yes that could be. Especially since the Swiss and the Austrians don’t like the Germans! They are considered as very proud people and that they are looking down on us (Swiss and Austrians. )

Are you saying that there aren’t any Mennonites proper in Switzerland anymore? I ask this because some of my wife’s ancestors were from the Bernese region and were Mennonites–I think they came to the U.S. in the 19th century (amy wife’s grandmother was born in this country but I think her parents were immigrants, or maybe her grandparents).

Well, as I am not from Switzerland, I am not sure. It could be that there are “original” Mennonites left there…
Although, it is really hard to tell if they reimmigrated all over Europe as ministers to evangelize recently. There are even Mennonites Ministers in Austria. They are a recognised as a Church in the meantime.

Interesting. I’ve not spent a lot of time in Austria, but in Germany I got the impression that the Freikirche is basically Baptist. The difference may be between a broader “free church” identity and a stricter form of Baptist Christianity. But I’m not sure.

Either that or that the Freikirche is the “original European form” which somehow survived and has reorganized themselves in the last few years and the Baptist Communitys (which are a seperate Church in Austria) are originiated in American Ministers.

European Baptists tend to be of a gentler strand than many English-speaking Baptists, more Anabaptist than Calvinist on the whole. And in my experience Romanian Baptists see themselves as the counterparts of American evangelicals generally.

Yes, we (the Evanelical Free Churches, the Baptists, the Mennonites and the Pentecostals) normally consider ourselves just as Christians (or reborn Christians).
I think the Evangelical Churches in the US are VERY different to those here in Europe, as you have already correctly stated.
So, I basically don’t understand when people are talking here about “protestants fighting each other”. Here in Europe there is no fighting - on the contrary.

Actually no, I’d say that “evangelikal” is a counterpart of “evangelical.” “Evangelisch” basically means “traditional Protestant.”

With the German word “evangelisch” here only the Lutheran Church and the Swiss Evangelical Church (I think this is the Zwingli Church) is meant. All others call themselves normally “Evangelikale Freikirche” or “Freikirchliche Evangelikale Gemeinde” or “Evangelisch-freikirchliche Gemeinde +Place]”. The reason why there is a destincation in German between Evangelikal und Evangelisch is that the big Lutheran and Zwingli Evangelical Churches don’t want to have anything to do with “the fundamentalists” 'though I can only speak for Austria. In Germany they are always called “Evangelische Freikirche”]. The Lutherans are normally only called "Evangelische Kirche (in Austria as well as in Germany).

I can see why European evangelicals would emphasize the Anabaptist heritage.

Yes me too. I think the Anabaptists really had a hard time in the 17th and 18th century. In my opinion they shouldn’t have been that brutally prosecuted. Nevertheless they were “the same Christians” like the Catholics or the Lutherans (The Mennonites were even pursecuted by the Lutherans, imagine that! Protestant vs Protestant!)

In the meantime there are a lot of “Evangelikale Freikirchen” all over in Austria (in nearly every dictrict at least one!)
American Evangelicals (Baptists and Mennonites (and also Methodists, although they are a bit different from their doctrine!) are only a few communities…

to be continued…

 

[Esdra]

I wonder how true that is in a strict historical sense. I can see why an Austrian evangelical would claim some kind of spiritual descent from the Hutterites. Evangelicals in Czechoslovakia (I use that anachronistic word because when I was there it was still Czechoslovakia–in fact I was in Slovakia on the day in 1992 when they voted to separate, and have unfortunately not been back since), in my experience, linked themselves with the Hussites.

Yes could be. It’s also a sort of geneology. And especially, as the president, mentioned above, had stressed: “We are not an “American sect”. We are the decendants of the Hutterites which were chased away in the 18th century. And Hutter was from the South Tyrol.” I think it also has a lot to do with evangelisation. Of course it is better to say that this Church always had existed and is not an “American sect”. (Remember: Austria is Catholic dominated. And you can imagine that in the people’s minds, everything that is non-Catholic is a sect! Even the Lutherans are considered as sect by some.)

But I think the actual Hutterites all left the Tyrol long ago. I wasn’t sure enough about this to contradict you when you said that you were one!

I also said that I am not an “original” Hutterite because they all have left the Tyrol 200 years ago! You didn’t read proberly.

The Hutterites are actually quite a closed group who consider themselves the one true Church, if I’m not mistaken.

Yes, I think so. This was certainly one of the reasons why they were chased away, because the Catholic Church already claimed to be “the one true Church”.

You might be interested also in the “Bruderhof” movement, a modern Christian group inspired by the Hutterites–they originated in Germany but I think that they also only exist in the English-speaking world now.

There is a similar community even here in Austria. They live together and have everything together just as the first Christians in the Bible did. If ever, they could be a rest of the “original” Hutterites. In Austria they are called “Bruedergemeinde”.

I think the word “fundamentalist” is misleading, since as you note it’s very different from American fundamentalism.

Definitely, yes. 'Though they call themselves “Fundamentalists” because they say that their fundament is the Bible. Although you are right: You can’t compare the American fundamentalists with the Churches who call themselves “fundamentalists” here in Europe.

I was very drawn to European (particularly Romanian) evangelicalism at one time, seeing it as much preferable to any of the American versions. I idealized it too much, and eventually came to realize that I didn’t agree with any version of low/free-church Protestant theology. Hence I became an Anglican, but still with hankerings after Catholicism and/or Orthodoxy. I respect the Anabaptist strand in free-church evangelicalism very much, however.

Oh yes, I am sure it is much more preferable than the American Versions (although I don’t know any American Baptists or so ).
I am really feeling well in my Community. We are a “big family” (although there aren’t many memeber per district and Church ).

Yours,
Thomas aka Esdra

Edwin

 

[Esdra]

Hi Esdra,
I just stumbled across your thread and found it very interesting. I come from a Mennonite background and spoke only Plautdietsch until I started school. Unfortunately, once I got a taste of English, I refused to continue on with Plautdietsch and now I have a very limited vocabulary in that language.

A number of years ago, we raised chickens on our acreage and when it came time to butcher them, I found it rather overwhelming for the number of chickens I had. So I called a local Hutterite colony and lo and behold they agreed to do my butchering for me.

We loaded up the chickens in crates and drove the 30 or so kms. to the colony. It was early evening, when we arrived at the colony and the boss immediately went and rang a bell, which resulted in all the young women coming out of their units to gather at their “butchering” facility. They were then given the assignment to butcher our chickens on the spot and went to it without hesitation. Typically, I believe their evenings are set aside for church and leisure, so I wasn’t surprised to detect some minor displeasure at this unexpected assignment. But they persevered and got the job done in just a couple of hours.

What surprised me was that I could pick out a few words that they spoke here and there and actually understood them. All in all, it was a very interesting experience to see how they work.

Hi

that’s really intersting that you could understand such a lot of Hutterite-language.
Because Plattdietsch is a Northern German Dialect. And Hutterite-language is a South German Dialect.
I also speak a similar dialect to Hutterite-language as a mother tongue.
So for me Plattdietsch is VERY hard to understand.
Have you listened to the audio file? Do you understand something there?

Best wishes,
Esdra (Thomas)

 

[Fair_Lady]

Hi

that’s really intersting that you could understand such a lot of Hutterite-language.
Because Plattdietsch is a Northern German Dialect. And Hutterite-language is a South German Dialect.
I also speak a similar dialect to Hutterite-language as a mother tongue.
So for me Plattdietsch is VERY hard to understand.
Have you listened to the audio file? Do you understand something there?

Best wishes,
Esdra (Thomas)

Hi again,

Yes, the two dialects are very different so I can only pick out a few Hutterite words here and there. But it was kind of exciting all the same.

Have you ever checked biblegateway.com to see if the New Testament has been translated into your language? I was astounded to find the New Testament in Plauttdietsch because Plauttdietsch was only a spoken language until quite recently. As a child I always found it strange that my Mennonite community would speak Plauttdietsch at home and for all their day to day affairs. However, in church they spoke High German. In my church (General Conference Mennonite) we had an English service and one later that was in High German. Mainly older folks attended the latter.

I tried listening to the audio file, but for some reason the sound didn’t come through. I’ll try again soon and see if anything happens. From what I could see, the people on the audo are Bolivian Mennonites. Their dress is a bit different because they wear wide brimmed hats over their head scarfs. I’d nver seen that before and am wondering if it has to do with all the exposure to sun in Bolivia. Very interesting.

Do you have Hutterite colonies in your country? I’ve always been fascinated by them. I find the women are often quite shy and quiet, but the men, especially the head of the colony (“The Boss”) are often more outgoing and jovial. I sometimes joke that it would be nice to be a Hutterite because women over 45 years of age are put onto lighter duties. On the other hand, it would be hard to not have the freedoms to drive a vehicle or work at an interesting job like I enjoy.

 

[Esdra]

Hi again,

Yes, the two dialects are very different so I can only pick out a few Hutterite words here and there. But it was kind of exciting all the same.

Well, it at least they are both German Dialects! No wonder.

Have you ever checked biblegateway.com to see if the New Testament has been translated into your language? I was astounded to find the New Testament in Plauttdietsch because Plauttdietsch was only a spoken language until quite recently. As a child I always found it strange that my Mennonite community would speak Plauttdietsch at home and for all their day to day affairs. However, in church they spoke High German. In my church (General Conference Mennonite) we had an English service and one later that was in High German. Mainly older folks attended the latter.

On biblegateway.com there only Bible Versions in High German. I think since Hutterite language and Plattdietsch are dialects it’s rather hard to find Bibles in these languages!
Btw, Hutterites use either English or an old form of High German in their services (they read for example in service the Luther Bible from 1554 or so - Not sure about the actual year).

I tried listening to the audio file, but for some reason the sound didn’t come through. I’ll try again soon and see if anything happens. From what I could see, the people on the audo are Bolivian Mennonites. Their dress is a bit different because they wear wide brimmed hats over their head scarfs. I’d nver seen that before and am wondering if it has to do with all the exposure to sun in Bolivia. Very interesting.

Oh, I see you are referring to the second audio file. Yes, they are Bolivians. I thought you meant the first audio file in the OP. This is Hutterite-language which is very close to my own dialect! Imagine this dialect has survived 500 years where people lived in other countries!

Do you have Hutterite colonies in your country? I’ve always been fascinated by them. I find the women are often quite shy and quiet, but the men, especially the head of the colony (“The Boss”) are often more outgoing and jovial. I sometimes joke that it would be nice to be a Hutterite because women over 45 years of age are put onto lighter duties. On the other hand, it would be hard to not have the freedoms to drive a vehicle or work at an interesting job like I enjoy.

Well, I think I don’t think so. They were all chased out of the country in the 16th century. In the meantime there are many “Evangelical Free Chuches” as they call them who are Anabaptist or Baptist in their theology and they claime to be descendants of the Hutterites (I also belong to such a community).
There are also Bruderhofe (in German: Brüdergemeinden) who are very similar (also living together etc) like the Hutterites. But they are dressed like in the 21th century dress. And I think they aren’t “real Hutterites”. I think the “original Hutterites” are only to be found in Canada and the US.

In Christ,
Thomas