The Idle Tale - Luke 24:11

[Ben_Masada]

Prophecy Of Isaias

All nations shall flow to the church of Christ. The Jews shall be rejected for their sins. Idolatry shall be destroyed.

1 The word that Isaias the son of Amos saw, concerning Juda and Jerusalem. 2 And in the last days the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be prepared on the top of mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations shall flow unto it.

Yes, full credit to them for showing up. But why hide in a box and not speak to the Pope?

**You must be either kidding or trying to provoke. It couldn’t be ignorance because this one is too easy. The mountain of the Lord’s house is physically Jerusalem, which is on a mountain, and spiritually Judah, the Jewish People, also known as Zion. And the text is quite clear about what the reference is to: Judah and Jerusalem. So all the nations shall flow to Zion. Just as Zechariah says in 8:23 that the Gentiles will reach for the Jews and beg to let them come with us, because they have finally recognized that God with us. You don’t cease amazing me how you can dare with your Replacement Theology.

Ben: **

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by BILL PICK
ben just love putting rubbish out to Christians

Who are unable to refute it without assumptions.

Actually, I did it with actual facts vs. making some up along the way ad hoc.

 

[djconklin]

I’d like to see the source for that claim. Scourging alone could kill a man. That, and since Jesus had eaten since Thursday nite or slept since Wednesday is why He collapsed carrying the cross.

The source for that claim is in John 19:1 And about the fact that scourging alone could kill a man, there were crucified who would sometimes remain on their crosses even up to 4 days till they meet their death. Jesus was taken off the cross after only a few hours.

1. Where’s the proof that many survived being crucified?
2. I didn’t say that all died while being scourged; just that it was known that some could die from that alone.

Not even close. Josephus saw some of his friends on crosses and was able to get permision to bring them down and despite the best medical care they had at that time two of the three died.

Quote:
This is the only known cases of anyone surviving crucifixion.

Obviously you do not acknowledge Josephus.

Since I had cited Josephus that claim is yet another lie.

if they had been taken off the crosses after a few hours as was Jesus, many would have survived the cross.

Tell that to the two friends of Josephus who received the best medical care of the day and yet still died. You are not a physician and are in no way qualified to render a medical opinion as to how many would have survived–especially since the known facts say otherwise.

There is no documented case of anyone laying on a cold stone slab while deathly ill/wounded being able to recover so well that they could then pass through walls.

Oh, I see! You have fallen for that one. I figure. Houdini used to have a word or two about this. In fact, David Coperfield did better when he went through the Chinese Great Wall, which is much thicker. How could Jesus, having proved that he was in flesh and bone, go through wals?

1. Since the Bible writers have never ben proven to have lied to me; yes, I’ll believe them over someone who has.
2. You missed the point: He recovered so well that no one saw Him as someone who barely survived a crucufixion. Between that and the scourging it would take an ordinary person months to recoup. You really believed that Copperfield (correct spelling) really went through the Great Wall? If so, I have some land for sale.

 

[Lapell]

Today I was visited by a Christian who calls himself a “Messianic Jew.” After an hour of study about the resurrection, he got impatient with my lack of faith, and before he left he challenged me to produce the body if I couldn’t believe in Jesus’ resurrection. That’s what inspired me to share with you this topic for discussion.

Now, if we put ourselves together, and then put together whatever we can from reading the NT about the resurrection of Jesus, we will see that he did not resurrect. I would like to bring to your attention some points about that tale. Tale! Yes, and the term is not mine. I am borrowing it from Jesus’ own disciples who went even further by adding the adjective “idle.” Idle tale, they said. (Luke 24:11)

The women had reported the words of the “angel” that Jesus had resurrected. The disciples probably had never heard of such a thing. They had no choice but to discard their report as an idle tale. Now, think: If those who lived daily with Jesus, listening daily to his words, could not believe the report, how can we be expected to, after almost two thousand years of listening to a tale that just won’t get less idle?

When did the disciples ever change their minds about that idle tale? I wonder because about 30 years later, when Paul showed up in Jerusalem preaching that Jesus had resurrected, he almost got killed. Why? Was not the Sect of the Nazarenes
headquartered in Jerusalem? Yes, but that Jesus had resurrected was not in their agenda. The whole thing had been made up by Paul. Yes, all according to his gospel as he himself revealed it to his disciple Timothy. (II Tim. 2:8) Obviously, Paul needed that tale to promote his Cause, which turned out to be Christianity.

The resurrection of Jesus, therefore, can be accepted only and exclusively by faith because there is no evidence to substantiate the event. An empty tomb is no proof of resurrection. And the refusal at the time to produce the body does not diminish from the fact that the body was indeed removed from there. And the guards can never be taken as evidence of anything whatsoever, because they were set at the tomb area only late Saturday morning. The disciple who removed Jesus’ body from that tomb, most probably Joseph of Arimathea, had the whole night of Friday, and all for himself to act without any disturbance. And he did it because he had enough reasons to believe that, by not doing it, even during the hours of that Sabbath, Mary Magdalene would have done it instead, as she herself declared she would. (John 20:15) So, I wish the preachers of the resurrection would at least give Paul the credit that’s due him. (II Tim. 2:8)

Ben:

Why were the Apostles not beaten like Paul was, you seem to say? How do you know the other Apostles were not? Is a book on history Sacred Scripture, Ben?
Do you forget that Peter and John were brought before the Sanhedrin? Why were they scourged there the second time? Why did the Sanhedrin order them not to speak again of Jesus of Nazareth? They at first were rather well received by the people, but still the Sanhedrin brought them to have them appear before them. And James son of Zabdee was arrested and executed under King Herod (not the Great, nor Agrippa, but another between their reigns). And Peter was also arrested in order to be executed, but some intervention occured (the Acts say it was an “angel of God”) so that in the end Peter was spared. Then the Church had to become more underground.
I still see your point: Why was Paul of Tarse threatened of death not by the Roman authorities, even less by the Sanhedrin, but by people in a crowd, unlike the Apostles a few years before? It was not so much the claim of Jesus’ resurrection as some things that Paul implied in his preaching about things made obsolete in the Law of Moses. Because of Jesus’ self-sacrifice for the atonement of the sins of the whole world, he said that we don’t need to offer sacrifices of animals as reparation for the sins committed any more. Had he said that those who are to benefit from the sacrifice Jesus made of Himself still had to repent from their sins, reject them, and sin no more, that it was not a free pass for any wrongdoer not interested at all in repenting, turning away from their wrong deeds (sins), making amends and not coming back to wrongdoing again, would the crowd still have been angry at him? I don’t know.
Remember, Ben, that after a while in the Acts of the Apostles we stop following the other Apostles and we follow Paul until the time he reaches Rome. Why? Because in those times Rome was considered to be at the end of the earth. And then it shows that the disciples did what Jesus asked them to do: to preach the Gospel in Jerusalem, in Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

 

[Bill_Pick]

djconklin;4947162:

**The source for that claim is in John 19:1 And about the fact that scourging alone could kill a man, there were crucified who would sometimes remain on their crosses even up to 4 days till they meet their death. Jesus was taken off the cross after only a few hours. **

Not even close. Josephus saw some of his friends on crosses and was able to get permision to bring them down and despite the best medical care they had at that time two of the three died.

Obviously you do not acknowledge Josephus. Since some of the crucified would spend up to 4 days on their crosses till they died, if they had been taken off the crosses after a few hours as was Jesus, many would have survived the cross. BECAUSE JESUS IS GOD AND THERE IS NOTHING HE CAN NOT DO,YOU DO NOT BELIEVE SO WHY KEEP BASHING CHRISTINS,BEN YOU ARE MAKE A FOOL OF YOUR SELF,WHY.

It didn’t matter to the Romans how long it took to the crucified to die, as long as they remained in their crosses till they died.

**Oh, I see! You have fallen for that one. I figure. Houdini used to have a word or two about this. In fact, David Coperfield did better when he went through the Chinese Great Wall, which is much thicker. How could Jesus, having proved that he was in flesh and bone, go through wals?

Ben: **

 

[Bill_Pick]

Ben Masada;4951121:
BEN AS A jew you do not understand and that is OK but why do you keep bashing Christian day by day, you are doing nothing but making a fool of your self, WHY… DO YOU JUST HATE CHRISTIANS, WHY and please remember not all JESUS did is in the Bible.

 

[Lapell]

And when he was arrested in Jerusalem, what was the who screamed to help him arrest him say? “Here’s the man who preaches that the customs of the Torah (“Law of Moses”) must be abolished.” It probably was a matter of Paul’s wordings, and what the people thought they heard and understood then.
At that point, the Acts have stopped following the other Apostles, so we won’t know from the Acts what would happen to the rest of the Apostles at that time.
The Acts of the Apostles are not a book of history per se, just as were not the case of the “historical books” of the OT either! (I know it’s not the Jews who called those books “historical”, but from Ben’s words it seems that there are Jews who consider the Acts of the Apostles the same way: as a “historical book”. So somehow we may be quite even!

 

[Lapell]

BILL PICK;4951891:

BEN AS A jew you do not understand and that is OK but why do you keep bashing Christian day by day, you are doing nothing but making a fool of your self, WHY… DO YOU JUST HATE CHRISTIANS, WHY and please remember not all JESUS did is in the Bible.

Bill, there are Jews who genuinely believe things like Ben tells us. There are some who just ask questions in order to catch us at fault, but others do for clarification of our Catholic position. Myself, I don’t know for sure the difference between the two, so I try to answer my best. Even to those who ask questions just to embarrass us we can choose to explain our position to the best of our knowledge. It does some good, too! For because of their questions, we are forced to do some research in order to give an answer as proper as possible.
Of course we can react, to take a Jewish example, like the school of Shammai, who were quick to spot the smart alecks and dismiss them on the spot; or we can react like the school of Hillel, who would patiently and kindly try to answer the question nevertheless.
I confess that at times, I’d react like Shammai, and at other times, I’d react like Hillel, so with me, it depends, you see.

 

[Lapell]

Non Christians, especially Jews, should realize that the way Ben asks his question seems designed to make us trip and get embarrassed. Hence the way a number of people react here on threads like this one.
And Christians, especially Catholics, should realize that they don’t need to try to knock Ben out. It certainly forces us to study the passages even better, also what the Church teaches us, also the things concerning our New Testament. Like the rest of the Scriptures, the NT is so rich that we won’t be finished discovering things from a new angle.
It is a worthwhile challenge, in my view.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Non Christians, especially Jews, should realize that the way Ben asks his question seems designed to make us trip and get embarrassed. Hence the way a number of people react here on threads like this one.
And Christians, especially Catholics, should realize that they don’t need to try to knock Ben out. It certainly forces us to study the passages even better, also what the Church teaches us, also the things concerning our New Testament. Like the rest of the Scriptures, the NT is so rich that we won’t be finished discovering things from a new angle.
It is a worthwhile challenge, in my view.

**Are you by any chance trying to set a bushel basket over my lamp? I warn you that you might be fighting against Jesus himself, when he said in his Sermon of the Mount that the Jews are the light of the world, and that their lamp should rather be set on a stand when it can give light to all in the house. Do you think you can prevail? (Mat. 5:14-16)

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

And when he was arrested in Jerusalem, what was the who screamed to help him arrest him say? “Here’s the man who preaches that the customs of the Torah (“Law of Moses”) must be abolished.” It probably was a matter of Paul’s wordings, and what the people thought they heard and understood then.
At that point, the Acts have stopped following the other Apostles, so we won’t know from the Acts what would happen to the rest of the Apostles at that time.
The Acts of the Apostles are not a book of history per se, just as were not the case of the “historical books” of the OT either! (I know it’s not the Jews who called those books “historical”, but from Ben’s words it seems that there are Jews who consider the Acts of the Apostles the same way: as a “historical book”. So somehow we may be quite even!

**They were Jews from Asia who had arrived in Jerusalem for the festival of Sukot. They were the ones who recognized Paul, who had become well-known throughout Asia, and used to preach against our People, our Law, and the Sanctuary, teaching the Jews in the Diaspora to abandon Moses, to stop circumcising their children, and to renounce the Jewish customs. (Acts 21:21, 27,28) That’s the reason why he was arrested.

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

BILL PICK;4951891:

BEN AS A jew you do not understand and that is OK but why do you keep bashing Christian day by day, you are doing nothing but making a fool of your self, WHY… DO YOU JUST HATE CHRISTIANS, WHY and please remember not all JESUS did is in the Bible.

**I am not bashing Christians. I am landing my voice in defense of Judaism from the Christian attempts to temper with it by inserting pagan innovations into it. I do not hate Christians. You must either be reflecting your own feelings towards the Jews or running out of arguments to stand before mine.

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Why were the Apostles not beaten like Paul was, you seem to say? How do you know the other Apostles were not? Is a book on history Sacred Scripture, Ben?

 

[swariffin]

**Are you by any chance trying to set a bushel basket over my lamp? I warn you that you might be fighting against Jesus himself, when he said in his Sermon of the Mount that the Jews are the light of the world, and that their lamp should rather be set on a stand when it can give light to all in the house. Do you think you can prevail? (Mat. 5:14-16)

Ben: **

And Jesus said in Mat 13:14-16:
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

and in Mat 15:8-9:
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Jesus as the Jew is the lamp at the stand, not every Jews, and certainly not the Judaism Jews who rejected Jesus for sure. You have to be kidding quoting the word of Jesus, while you don’t believe in Him.

 

[swariffin]

BILL PICK;4951905:

**I am not bashing Christians. I am landing my voice in defense of Judaism from the Christian attempts to temper with it by inserting pagan innovations into it. I do not hate Christians. You must either be reflecting your own feelings towards the Jews or running out of arguments to stand before mine.

Ben: **

If you don’t believe in Jesus and His teaching, you are welcome to do so. Judaism does not accept Jesus, so Judaism is not the same as Christianity. I don’t see anybody attacking Judaism in this thread. Christianity is Christianity and nothing to do with Judaism. I don’t see why you believe that you must defend Jesus against any other believe you considered as false as you don’t believe in Jesus yourself. That is really strange and illogical. If you want to defend Judaism, surely you have the right to do so. But, do not mentioned anything about Jesus and His teaching. Nobody ever say that Christianity equals to Judaism.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;4956024:

If you don’t believe in Jesus and His teaching, you are welcome to do so. Judaism does not accept Jesus, so Judaism is not the same as Christianity. I don’t see anybody attacking Judaism in this thread. Christianity is Christianity and nothing to do with Judaism. I don’t see why you believe that you must defend Jesus against any other believe you considered as false as you don’t believe in Jesus yourself. That is really strange and illogical. If you want to defend Judaism, surely you have the right to do so. But, do not mentioned anything about Jesus and His teaching. Nobody ever say that Christianity equals to Judaism.

**The Jesus I am talking about was Jewish, a religious Jew. Therefore, anything about him which is not according to his Faith, which was Judaism, is an attempt to temper with Jewish things. If you want me to but out of here, stop connecting your Christ with anything that pertains to Judaism.

Ben: **

 

[swariffin]

Lapell;4951860:

**Because if they had been, it would be a contradiction in the NT. If you
read Acts 9:31, the Sect of the Nazarenes, which Peter was a member of, enjoyed peace
in Jerusalem, and throughout Galilee, and Samaria, and was being built and making steady progress in the fear of the Lord. After about 30 years the troubles started because of Paul, and the Jewish mistake that he was a ringleader of the Nazarenes. (Acts 24:5) **

It was peace because Peter and the other apostle were silence and did not show up. The Jews were at peace because they were in power in Judea. Just like the Christian living in Muslim majority country. You seem never to live in the muslim country, don’t you Ben? All the Sect of Nazarene were Jesus’ followers, and they were Christian. Sect of Nazarene was the Roman word who saw differences of Judaism and Christianity brought by Jesus. When the scene was outside Judea, in Greece, for instance, they have no power, so Jesus followers could say that Jesus was the Messiah (Christ). So, only the ignorance people think that Christianity declared formally in Judea during the first century.

No, I don’t forget. Those things above about Peter are interpolations. Don’t forget that 80 percent of the NT is formed by interpolations. Otherwise, they could be contradictions, and I am sure you are not ready for that.

Don’t forget that Judaism is more in the writing of Mizna and Talbut, but little in the real Thorah.

Nothing of the above. It’s all Pauline rhetoric. I would have nothing against anything of the above, if it became purely Christian. But as was Paul’s intention, you guys pretend to dress them with Jewish credibility, and it should have nothing to do with Judaism.

See the first paragraph.

**Jesus preached exactly the opposite by forbidding his disciples to take the gospel to the Gentiles. Read Matthew 10:6. As a matter of fact, many of the converts of the Nazarenes did quit following the Apostles and passed to follow Paul, but because it was Paul’s customs to fish his converts from the synagogues of the Jews in general and Nazarenes in particular.

Nope, it is clear that Jesus said (Mat 21:43) “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”**

Ben:

What else Ben?

 

[Ben_Masada]

And Jesus said in Mat 13:14-16:
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

and in Mat 15:8-9:
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Jesus as the Jew is the lamp at the stand, not every Jews, and certainly not the Judaism Jews who rejected Jesus for sure. You have to be kidding quoting the word of Jesus, while you don’t believe in Him.

**I am not kidding; I am deadly serious. I believe in Jesus for what he really was and not for what Christians claim him to be. I am sorry if I am helpless to open your eyes to a simple lesson of Grammar. Perhaps you don’t even bother to check the quotations I put down to prove my point. Go back to Matthew 5:14 and see what pronoun Jesus uses. He did not say “I am the light of the world.” He said, “YOU are the light of the world.” And he was speaking to a crowd of Jews, because when he finished, the crowds were spellbound at his teaching. (Mat. 7:28)

The problem with you guys is that you are not interested with what is written but with what the Church decides what you should believe and what not. That’s sad! It only proves that you don’t have a mind of your own. I am sorry.

Ben: **

 

[swariffin]

**I am not kidding; I am deadly serious. I believe in Jesus for what he really was and not for what Christians claim him to be. I am sorry if I am helpless to open your eyes to a simple lesson of Grammar. Perhaps you don’t even bother to check the quotations I put down to prove my point. Go back to Matthew 5:14 and see what pronoun Jesus uses. He did not say “I am the light of the world.” He said, “YOU are the light of the world.” And he was speaking to a crowd of Jews, because when he finished, the crowds were spellbound at his teaching. (Mat. 7:28)

The problem with you guys is that you are not interested with what is written but with what the Church decides what you should believe and what not. That’s sad! It only proves that you don’t have a mind of your own. I am sorry.

Ben: **

I read it Ben. Very clearly and I also read that the Kingdom of Heaven has been taken out from the Jews and given to another nation which bear the fruits. I am fully interested to what Jesus said.

Yes, you believe in Jesus as what you perceived He was. A criminal who confessed that He was the Messiah before Kayafas, and therefore a blasphemer.

 

[djconklin]

Repeat:

I’d like to see the source for that claim. Scourging alone could kill a man. That, and since Jesus had eaten since Thursday nite or slept since Wednesday is why He collapsed carrying the cross.

The source for that claim is in John 19:1 And about the fact that scourging alone could kill a man, there were crucified who would sometimes remain on their crosses even up to 4 days till they meet their death. Jesus was taken off the cross after only a few hours.

1. Where’s the proof that many survived being crucified?
2. I didn’t say that all died while being scourged; just that it was known that some could die from that alone.

Not even close. Josephus saw some of his friends on crosses and was able to get permision to bring them down and despite the best medical care they had at that time two of the three died.

This is the only known case of anyone surviving crucifixion.

Obviously you do not acknowledge Josephus.

Since I had cited Josephus that claim is yet another lie.

if they had been taken off the crosses after a few hours as was Jesus, many would have survived the cross.

Tell that to the two friends of Josephus who received the best medical care of the day and yet still died. You are not a physician and are in no way qualified to render a medical opinion as to how many would have survived–especially since the known facts say otherwise.

There is no documented case of anyone laying on a cold stone slab while deathly ill/wounded being able to recover so well that they could then pass through walls.

Oh, I see! You have fallen for that one. I figure. Houdini used to have a word or two about this. In fact, David Coperfield did better when he went through the Chinese Great Wall, which is much thicker. How could Jesus, having proved that he was in flesh and bone, go through wals?

1. Since the Bible writers have never ben proven to have lied to me; yes, I’ll believe them over someone who has.
2. You missed the point: He recovered so well that no one saw Him as someone who barely survived a crucifixion. Between that and the scourging it would take an ordinary person months to recoup. You really believed that Copperfield (correct spelling) really went through the Great Wall? If so, I have some land for sale.

Repeated because he still can’t answer it.