The "if you don't like _______ don't do it" argument

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followingtheway said:
I saw a couple of arguments against the Catholic Church’s conservative stance on certain issues but this one is unique, how would you respond to these arguments?

http://scottiestoybox.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/tvrrw.png?w=300
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Well, lots of things.

One, I don’t have a choice not to subsidize abortion or gay “marriage” or the consequences of fornication with my tax dollars.

Two, I don’t get a choice not to be subject to the moral corruption of society short of total self-exile and so on.

Three, there’s no “rights” to any of these things in a meaningful sense and people who insist there are are BSing. The vast majority of devoted liberals are ignorant and ill-read on matters of philosophy, haven’t the faintest idea what a “right” is, and couldn’t tell you where they come from metaphysically. Since they reject metaphysics in general, their idea of “rights” is really more akin to “conventions.”

Grrr! Don’t get me going!
 
It’s not just that the Church doesn’t “like” certain things. It’s the fact that these particular issues are grave evils, affronts to God, and can cause separation from God (except sex…sex, when engaged in in the proper manner within marriage is a moral good).

…don’t like you rights taken away…" Oh please. I have no desire to take away a person’s “right” to commit moral evils that can separate them from God. God Himself gave us the freedom to choose, I’m not about to tell someone else how they must live…unless they are seeking Truth and ask me…or if they are providing an immoral example I certainly have the right and responsibility to admonish and correct.

But don’t expect me to stand idly by if your immoral actions are affecting me or my family. And I don’t want to pay for someone to live the way they want. My tax dollars shouldn’t be going to pay for people to commit these acts. Do they in turn subsidize my “right” to go to Mass on Sunday?! Are they willing for their tax dollars to go toward my homeshooled children’s books?! I think not! So why do they somehow have a “right” to live off my dime while they commit acts that are immoral? You may have a legal “right” to abort your baby or fornicate or commit sodomy, but don’t ask me to pay for it, and don’t try to force me to accept it as good, and don’t hate me just because I choose God over man. And don’t ask me to agree to change the laws to suit your immoral lifestyle.
 
Some obsevations:
  1. If the folks posting the maxims, which OP is responding to, really believed what they’d said, then there is no reason they should not also adhere to the maxim, “Don’t like murder? Don’t commit one.” Instead, I theorize that for the folks posting the maxim, “Don’t like X? Don’t do X!”, what they are advocating is NOT “everything is allowable,” but instead what they are really doing is limiting X to whatever particular conduct they want to engage in
  2. Along those lines, the argument “don’t like X? Don’t do X!” contains the implicit assumption that “if you think X is OK you may then do it.” “Don’t like X? Don’t do X!” also assumes that there are no moral absolutes whatsoever, i.e., it assumes that there is nothing which should never be done by ANYONE. OP should ask the posters if they also adhere to the maxim, “don’t like pedophilia? Don’t be a pedophile yourself!” Since no one will agree with THAT maxim, ask them…why not? Answer: Because everyone knows pedophilia is wrong. If the advocates, that OP is trying to answer, will admit that SOMETHING is so repugnant that it is always wrong, then those advocates are already backing up.
  3. The argument “don’t like X? Don’t do X!” also fails to recognize that the actions of others impact society around us. If X = “drunk driving,” everyone likely acknowledges that society has some right to limit people’s right to tool around drunk. The exact same argument works equally well when X = “having abortions” or “smoking crack.”
I think it was Lincoln who said, “no one has the right to do that which is morally wrong.”
 
followingtheway said:
I saw a couple of arguments against the Catholic Church’s conservative stance on certain issues but this one is unique, how would you respond to these arguments?

http://scottiestoybox.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/tvrrw.png?w=300
Click to expand...
Well, the implication here is that they think they should be able to do whatever they want, even if you disapprove. If that’s the standard, would they be okay with the following “logic,” also?

If you don’t like murder, then don’t murder, but it’s okay for me because I think I should be allowed to murder.

If you don’t like rape, then rape, but it’s okay for me because I think I should be allowed to rape.

If you don’t like theft, then don’t steal, but it’s okay for me because I think I should be allowed to steal.

What lunacy! We need morals in our society, or else we’ll have chaos, bedlam, and anarchy. We’re not as far from it as folks think, as it is.
 
Scoobyshme said:
Well, the implication here is that they think they should be able to do whatever they want, even if you disapprove. If that’s the standard, would they be okay with the following “logic,” also?

If you don’t like murder, then don’t murder, but it’s okay for me because I think I should be allowed to murder.

If you don’t like rape, then rape, but it’s okay for me because I think I should be allowed to rape.

If you don’t like theft, then don’t steal, but it’s okay for me because I think I should be allowed to steal.

What lunacy! We need morals in our society, or else we’ll have chaos, bedlam, and anarchy. We’re not as far from it as folks think, as it is.
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👍
 
It is so funny when people tell others to live their lives in such a way to not tell others how to live. To be open-minded to everything but objectivity.
 
DaddyGirl said:
There is a BIG difference in logic!
You list actions here that are against the law and that are universally agreed upon as being wrong (unless you are mentally ill).
The OP lists actions that are *not *against the law, and that people differ in opinion on.
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You miss the force and main thrust/point of the argument.
 
If you don’t like murder…don’t do it.

If you don’t like torturing little animals don’t do it.

If you don’t like beating your wife don’t do it…
 
There is nothing in Catholic teaching preventing an unhappily married couple from separating or even divorcing civilly if such is necessary. What they can’t do is remarry afterwards unless they obtain a Church annulment.

Now if you saw one of this couple physically putting poison in the other’s food, I’m sure you’d speak up and their ‘right’ to harm each other be d@$ned. In fact you would probably consider you had a duty to do so.

What makes you think they have any ‘right’ to harm each other so deeply in the way you describe? What makes you think you have any less a duty to speak out and try to prevent that harm?
DaddyGirl said:
There is a BIG difference in logic!
You list actions here that are against the law and that are universally agreed upon as being wrong (unless you are mentally ill).
The OP lists actions that are *not *against the law, and that people differ in opinion on.

You have to remember that there are other people living in this world alongside you who do not follow the Catholic religion. A lot of them.
They follow other religions or they don’t follow any at all, and that, constitutionally and in other ways, is their right.

I know a married Catholic couple who have been desperately unhappy with each other for decades–so much so that they are making themselves sick. But I don’t tell them to get a divorce. I don’t impose what I believe to be the right thing to do on them. You should not, either.
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Hokomai said:
Do you mean children?
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I mainly mean the fetishization of single motherhood at the expense of society’s valuation of marriage.
DaddyGirl said:
There is a BIG difference in logic!
You list actions here that are against the law and that are universally agreed upon as being wrong (unless you are mentally ill).
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We prohibit them because they are universally wrong, not because they are universally agreed on as being wrong.

If everyone agreed murder was OK in principle, it would not be OK to legalize murder. A society that legalized it would be degenerate, morally corrupt, and worthy of destruction.

Likewise, gay “marriage” is not only universally wrong but it is an ontological non sequitur – and this is the case even if no one recognizes it.
The OP lists actions that are *not *against the law, and that people differ in opinion on.
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This doesn’t make much sense, though. We shouldn’t try to ban them because they’re not currently banned?

It doesn’t matter if some people disagree that abortion is wrong. Those people are objectively wrong and they are supporting murder. We ought not to tolerate infanticide just to avoid offending liberals.
You have to remember that there are other people living in this world alongside you who do not follow the Catholic religion. A lot of them.
They follow other religions or they don’t follow any at all, and that, constitutionally and in other ways, is their right.
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The Constitution is an authority subordinate to natural law. It cannot command us to discard our moral convictions.
I know a married Catholic couple who have been desperately unhappy with each other for decades–so much so that they are making themselves sick. But I don’t tell them to get a divorce. I don’t impose what I believe to be the right thing to do on them. You should not, either.
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Then, no offense, but you are failing grossly in charity. Reminding those tempted to sin of their moral obligations is a duty of all Christians.
 
DaddyGirl said:
There is a BIG difference in logic!
You list actions here that are against the law and that are universally agreed upon as being wrong (unless you are mentally ill).
The OP lists actions that are *not *against the law, and that people differ in opinion on.

You have to remember that there are other people living in this world alongside you who do not follow the Catholic religion. A lot of them.
They follow other religions or they don’t follow any at all, and that, constitutionally and in other ways, is their right.

I know a married Catholic couple who have been desperately unhappy with each other for decades–so much so that they are making themselves sick. But I don’t tell them to get a divorce. I don’t impose what I believe to be the right thing to do on them. You should not, either.
Click to expand...
Man-made law is always superseded by Divine Law and Natural Law. The things in the original post that were listed (gay “marriage”, abortion, etc.) are all against both Divine and Natural Law, as are the things I listed. No difference.

It doesn’t matter if anyone follows the truths of Christ (Catholic religion) or not. Truth is truth, even if no one believes it, and lies are lies, even if everyone believes them. There IS such a thing as objective truth, and that truth is not an opinion or a perspective. Strictly speaking, it is a Person. Jesus Christ. He came to earth and taught the Apostles Himself. They, in turn, taught their successors, the bishops, who did likewise, down through 2000 years now.

We are here on earth to be tested. Some will pass “the test” and gain eternal life. Others will not and go to eternal damnation. It’s just that simple.
 
ahs said:
It’s not just that the Church doesn’t “like” certain things. It’s the fact that these particular issues are grave evils, affronts to God, and can cause separation from God (except sex…sex, when engaged in in the proper manner within marriage is a moral good).

…don’t like you rights taken away…" Oh please. I have no desire to take away a person’s “right” to commit moral evils that can separate them from God. God Himself gave us the freedom to choose, I’m not about to tell someone else how they must live…unless they are seeking Truth and ask me…or if they are providing an immoral example I certainly have the right and responsibility to admonish and correct.

But don’t expect me to stand idly by if your immoral actions are affecting me or my family. And I don’t want to pay for someone to live the way they want. My tax dollars shouldn’t be going to pay for people to commit these acts. Do they in turn subsidize my “right” to go to Mass on Sunday?! Are they willing for their tax dollars to go toward my homeshooled children’s books?! I think not! So why do they somehow have a “right” to live off my dime while they commit acts that are immoral? You may have a legal “right” to abort your baby or fornicate or commit sodomy, but don’t ask me to pay for it, and don’t try to force me to accept it as good, and don’t hate me just because I choose God over man. And don’t ask me to agree to change the laws to suit your immoral lifestyle.
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I am not going to answer your other questions here, ahs, but to answer the bolded part: yes they do. My tax euros do pay for people like you to live how you want.
 
belorg said:
I am not going to answer your other questions here, ahs, but to answer the bolded part: yes they do. My tax euros do pay for people like you to live how you want.
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So, belong, how do your taxes pay for people to attend Mass?
 
belorg said:
I am not going to answer your other questions here, ahs, but to answer the bolded part: yes they do. My tax euros do pay for people like you to live how you want.
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REALLY?! (And please don’t take this as sarcastic…I am truly interested.) How exactly do your taxes subsidize me going to Mass?

(HAHA…Scooby ninja postd on me. 😉 )
 
ahs said:
REALLY?! (And please don’t take this as sarcastic…I am truly interested.) How exactly do your taxes subsidize me going to Mass?

(HAHA…Scooby ninja postd on me. 😉 )
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In my government Catholic pastors are paid by the government. And I pay texes in my country, so because of the taxes I pay ,people like you can attend Mass.
If you come to my country and attend Mass, just think about it: I pay for it. 🙂
 
belorg said:
In my government Catholic pastors are paid by the government. And I pay texes in my country, so because of the taxes I pay ,people like you can attend Mass.
If you come to my country and attend Mass, just think about it: I pay for it. 🙂
Click to expand...
Poland?
 
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