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garysibio
Guest
Please help me clear up a point on confusion. If Mary was protected from commiting any sins, wouldn’t that have negated her free will?
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1ke
Guest
Did it negate Eve’s free will? She too was free from all sin at her creation.
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1ke
Guest
I just noticed you said Mary was “protected” from all sin. This is not a correct formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Mary was preserved from original sin.
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1ke
Guest
This is where you have it wrong. Mary was not “kept” from sinning. Mary had free will. Eve had free will also. They made different choices in the exercise of that will.
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1ke
Guest
You seem to be under the impression that God did not allow Mary to sin. This is not the case. Mary was conceived without original sin. Eve was created without original sin. Both had free will. Mary did not sin. Eve did.
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1ke
Guest
She was preserved from original sin.
Yes. She had free will
She was preserved from original sin. This means she had sanctifying grace from the moment of her conception .
She did not commit *personal *sin, which was an act of her will. Same as Eve, although Eve did sin, also an act of her will.
See:
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1K.HTM
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM
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garysibio
Guest
- Are you saying that the Immaculate Conception applies only to original sin?
- Could Mary have sinned if she had chosen to? If no, then how did she have free will?
- If the answer to #2 is yes, how could we possibly know for certain that she did not? The understanding of Mary as the New Eve by the ECFs wouldn’t apply. Eve was conceived without original sin yet it didn’t prevent her from sinning later in life.
- What I’m hearing is that Eve was created without sin but Mary was redeemed from original sin. Wouldn’t that put Eve ahead of Mary until Eve actually sinned? (Sorry. This question is confusing but I can’t think of a better way of asking it.)
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Chopstick
Guest
At conception, original sin is all there would be, can’t commit personal sins in the womb. So the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived without original sin.
Of course, she could have chosen to sin; without that choice, she would have no free will. As Catholics, though, we believe she never chose to sin.
How do we know? I don’t have a really good answer for that one (lol, forgive me, I’m still kinda new at this Catholic stuff
). Personally, I believe it because the Church teaches it’s true…
I’m not sure anyone, at any point in their life, could be said to have been ‘ahead’ of Mary. She was chosen to be the Mother of God! But I guess before she sinned, Eve didn’t need a Savior, while Mary always did. After all, Mary was saved by Jesus, too, though in a different way.
Of course, she could have chosen to sin; without that choice, she would have no free will. As Catholics, though, we believe she never chose to sin.
How do we know? I don’t have a really good answer for that one (lol, forgive me, I’m still kinda new at this Catholic stuff
). Personally, I believe it because the Church teaches it’s true…I’m not sure anyone, at any point in their life, could be said to have been ‘ahead’ of Mary. She was chosen to be the Mother of God! But I guess before she sinned, Eve didn’t need a Savior, while Mary always did. After all, Mary was saved by Jesus, too, though in a different way.
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1ke
Guest
Here is the dogmatic in the document Ineffabilis Deus:
We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.
Yes.
Because the Church tells us she did not.
See CCC 493 which tells us, “By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.”
We are redeemed from original sin via baptism. We are born in original sin and are then regenerated in baptism.
Mary was *preserved from *original sin. She was free from all stain of original sin from the moment of her conception by the merits of her Son.
I don’t understand what you mean by Eve being “ahead of” Mary.
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jollybird
Guest
ike
I am not arguing with you but need clarification.
In my coursework one of the hardest dogmas to wrap my head around was the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception which is very hard to understand in large part because it seems like we are splitting hairs, which we are. It was explained to me that Mary was born without the “stain” of original sin meaning she was “preserved” as you expalined earlier, from the damage of original sin. However, to say she was born without original sin, it was explained to me, would be to say that she was not in need of a Savior, but we know that Her Son was her Savior as well as ours. By virtue of God’s grace, she was saved at conception.
I am interested in your understanding of that particular hair splitting.
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garysibio
Guest
Saying Eve was better off than Mary was an incredibly sloppy way of saying what I had in mind. As the Mother of God, she was certainly way ahead of Eve in blessings. I was focusing on the fact that Eve’s sinless conception did not require any special graces.At conception, original sin is all there would be, can’t commit personal sins in the womb. So the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived without original sin.
Of course, she could have chosen to sin; without that choice, she would have no free will. As Catholics, though, we believe she never chose to sin.
How do we know? I don’t have a really good answer for that one (lol, forgive me, I’m still kinda new at this Catholic stuff
I’m not sure anyone, at any point in their life, could be said to have been ‘ahead’ of Mary. She was chosen to be the Mother of God! But I guess before she sinned, Eve didn’t need a Savior, while Mary always did. After all, Mary was saved by Jesus, too, though in a different way.
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jollybird
Guest
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garysibio
Guest
Um, could you please translate for us non-theologians?
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WesleyF
Guest
“But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own** desire**. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.” (James 1:14-15)
If I do not have a desire to sin, I cannot be tempted to sin and therefore I cannot even will to sin. With the superabundance of God’s grace that was bestowed upon Mary, even her desires were pure. She therefore desired only that which was good. Thus, she had free will. But her will was to do only good, just as God has free will, but he wills only the good.
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john_aurelius
Guest
our free will is torn between our abilities to choose God and holiness or our own sinful nature and actual sins.
If Mary had no sinful nature and God kept her all her life then she is free to choose holiness all the time.
If Mary had no sinful nature and God kept her all her life then she is free to choose holiness all the time.
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