The Immaculate Conception; No stain, or no debt and no stain?

[Church_Militant]

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This site (the one at the link he shows above) is NOT a Catholic site. In fact it appears to take an ANTI-Catholic stance.

 

[redeemed1]

Read the KJV bible. Why did Jesus condone worshiping of fellow people when he told the story of the man who went to the banquit and where he should sit.

What do you think I post from? The duay version? not likely.

Please notice that Jesus does not praise these people, He condemns them!

Matthew 23:1-33 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.** Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!** for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Redeemed1,you just decribed yourself perfectly in your last post.It is rare to see so much hate and venom for Gods Children. I will be sure to pray for you, that our Lord will deliver you from the hate that binds you

 

[redeemed1]

You missed it! Jesus was describing the RCC and all man made teachings and cults that put extra burdens on those who would otherwise come directly to Him. The point is Jesus is the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by HIM. He is God manifest in the flesh. Get it?

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

No, we don’t get it.

All we care about is Mary, the Goddess, and the Pope, the true Holy Father of us all.

Jesus is a mean and angry guy who doesn’t love us, or want a personal relationship with us. That’s why we *need * the saints! And the Bible is such a boring book; we’re much happy with our Babylonian superstitions.

Right now I’m praying my rosary, hoping that my Mother Mary will cast a spell and convert you back to the Romish Church.

Get it?

 

[Todd_Easton]

redeemed1:

So why do you worship her. If you don’t think the rcc’s worship this person, then please explain to me the phenomena manifested

Catholics do not worship or adore Mary, as the video on your link states. Catholics believe that worship and adoration are for God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) alone. The behavior expressed in the video by Catholics for Mary is filial love and devotion not worship or adoration. From the outside this concept may be hard for you to grasp but we Catholics know the difference between honoring our mother Mary (John 19:27) who is a creature and worshipping God who is our Creator. Saying that Catholics adore Mary, as this video does, is a lie and such lies and deceptions are from the evil one. This video is a mixture of truths, half-truths and outright lies…and good for nothing.

As the video correctly states, of the thousands of reported apparations of Mary, the Catholic Church has determined only a few are credible. The reported apparations at Medjugorje have not been approved of by the Catholic Church but these are ones most quoted in this deceptive video to condemn the Catholic Church.

The Scripture-alone and Faith-alone statements in this video are man-made traditions from the time of the Reformation that nullify the word of God. Arguments against these traditions can be found elsewhere on these forums and in the Library section of Catholic Answers.

The ridiculous idea that we should not ask other Christians to intercede for us and pray for us, especially Mary who is the Christian par excellence, but that we must only go directly to Jesus ourselves is unbiblical, a man-made tradition since the Reformation that nullifies the word of God. Paul frequently asked other Christians to pray for him and he encouraged them to make intercessions on behalf of all men:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. (1 Tim 2:1-2)

The idea expressed in the video that Christians, especially Mary who is the Christian par excellence, never mediate God’s graces is also a ridiculous and unbiblical man-made tradition that nullifies the word of God. In the New Testament, Christians were mediating the graces of God all the time. For instance, in Acts 5:12, it says, “Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles.” In 2 Tim 1:6, Paul says, “Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands.”

The video’s argument that Mary can’t be the Queen of Heaven because there was some evil spirit in Isaiah’s time who claimed that title is ridiculous. By that kind of reasoning, Jesus can’t be the king of kings because King Artaxerxes claimed to be the king of kings in Ezra 12:7. Because Jesus is the king of the kingdom of heaven, it is only fitting that Mary should be the queen of the kingdom of heaven since every Davidic king from the time of Solomon onward made his mother the queen of his kingdom. Furthermore, in the first Marian apparation, described in Rev 12:1-17, John sees Mary, the mother of the Word of God, as “a great portent…in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”

The makers of the video present a false dichotomy when they imply that one must choose either Jesus or Mary and they ignore the fact that “the Lord is with” Mary (Luke 1:28) and Mary is “the handmaid of the Lord” (Luke 1:38). Devotion to Mary, the Christian par excellence, does not take away from but complements and enriches devotion to Jesus Christ.

 

[vern_humphrey]

RobbyS:

If some Catholics do–wrongly–treat Mary like a goddess, then noncatholics commit the opposite offense, which is to dismiss her entirely. If we only had the Gospel of Mark then one could say that she plays no role besides giving him birth. But how can one read what is said in Matthew and Luke–especially the latter–and not see that she was not only his mother but was well aware who HE was. She was the first Christian and her spouse Joseph was the second. In the light of the Nativity story, the barest mention of Mary in Acts takes on enormous significance, a hint of the great role that the Church has always assigned to her.

We also have tradition – there is solid evidence that Mary’s role was evident in her lifetime and immediately afterwards.

I have a friend who used to say, “When you read the works of ancient Christians, you’re amazed at how Catholic they were.” (Or, as I say, how faithfully we have maintained the Christian tradition.)

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

redeemed1:

You know I can’t find anything in the Bible that says Mary was immaculate or anything like that. Luke records that Mary rejoiced in God her savior so that means if she needs a savior she must have sin. She knew it.

You know, I can’t find anywhere in the bible where it says that the bible is the sole rule of faith, so it mustn’t be. Therefore, something else must be required along with Scripture to for the deposit and rule of faith. I wonder what that could be?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Scott_Lafrance:

You know, I can’t find anywhere in the bible where it says that the bible is the sole rule of faith, so it mustn’t be. Therefore, something else must be required along with Scripture to for the deposit and rule of faith. I wonder what that could be?

How inconvenient that the New Testament didn’t exist for hundreds of years after the Resurrection.

It was all a Catholic plot, you know.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[redeemed1]

No, we don’t get it.
All we care about is Mary, the Goddess, and the Pope, the true Holy Father of us all.
Jesus is a mean and angry guy who doesn’t love us, or want a personal relationship with us. That’s why we *need *the saints! And the Bible is such a boring book; we’re much happy with our Babylonian superstitions.
Right now I’m praying my rosary, hoping that my Mother Mary will cast a spell and convert you back to the Romish Church.

Exodus 20:2-3 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Deuteronomy 10:20 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

---

---

 

[redeemed1]

Furthermore, in the first Marian apparation, described in Rev 12:1-17, John sees Mary, the mother of the Word of God, as “a great portent…in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”

This just goes to show you how out of whack your theology is because The Revelation of Jesus Christ chapter 12 is about Israel, not the roman catholic church.
Revelation 12:1-2 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Ps 2:9-10; Isa 7:14; Jer 31:22; Mic 5:3; Mt 1:25

Did the catholic church give birth to Yeshua? No and Jesus tells us: John 4:22-23 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

This should stand as a warning to those who hold to the teachings of the RCC.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

 

[Church_Militant]

You are just plain FULL of hatred aren’t ya there…
I wish I could see Jesus in ya…but all I can see is that you hate.
You really and truly do not know what you’re talkin’ about. You THINK you do and in your misguided way I suppose that you mean well, but I personally could NEVER be part of any church that preached the way you do.

Sorry…just not interested…

• Turns slowly around and walks away…*

 

[itsjustdave1988]

DavidFilmer:

The Bull Ineffabilis Deus” (Pope Pius IX, Dec 8, 1954) states:This seems consistent with the passages you cited (which, frankly, I was not aware that St. Thomas had written).

St. Thomas Aquinas did not write the passage cited in the first post. It was from an editorial note.

Frankly, I don’t see it in agreement with what St. Thomas actually wrote. It seems to me that St. Thomas denied the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

*Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas, *III, 27, 2:
newadvent.org/summa/402702.htm

**If the soul of the Blessed Virgin had never incurred the stain of original sin, this would be derogatory to the dignity of Christ … the Blessed Virgin did indeed contract original sin, but was cleansed therefrom before her birth from the womb. **

St. Thomas, in this instance, was wrong.

 

[jimmy]

redeemed1:

What do you think I post from? The duay version? not likely.

Please notice that Jesus does not praise these people, He condemns them!

Matthew 23:1-33 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be …Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them, 8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him; 9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room. 10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worshipin the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. 12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. 13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: 14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Luke 14

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

redeemed1:

So why do you worship her. If you don’t think the rcc’s worship this person, then please explain to me the phenomena manifested here:

%between%

and she is not a part of our salvation in any way.

Thats a pretty big statement, considering Mary brought your Saviour and everyone elses Saviour into the world, Marys greatest attribute, was Her humility, something I find lacking in you. --------christiananswers.net/catalog/messages-vs.html
An anti Catholic website, come on you don’t think they’re going to say anything good about us, now do ya !!!

(reedemed1) is Mary Blessed ?

Is Mary full of grace ?

What if the Angel Gabriel appeared today, would that be demonic too ?

(reedemed1) are you thankful to Mary for anything ?

 

[mayra_hart]

Martin Luther:

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary’s divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin…"3

 

[Todd_Easton]

redeemed1:

This just goes to show you how out of whack your theology is because The Revelation of Jesus Christ chapter 12 is about Israel, not the roman catholic church.
Revelation 12:1-2 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Ps 2:9-10; Isa 7:14; Jer 31:22; Mic 5:3; Mt 1:25

I did not say the woman in Rev 12:1-17 was the Catholic Church; I said that Rev 12:1-17 describes the first Marian apparation. In other words, this is the first recorded vision of Mary in her heavenly glory.

In Rev 12:1-17, John sees a woman in glory and this woman “brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.” In Rev 19:11-16, he who “will rule them [the nations] with a rod of iron” is called “The Word of God.” This is an obvious reference to Jesus Christ. Therefore, the obvious interpretation of the woman in Rev 12:1-17 is Jesus’ mother, Mary. That Christians, “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus,” are the offspring of Mary is confirmed by Jesus himself in John 19:26-27:26When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!”

 

[redeemed1]

Luke 14:10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.

If you would bother to look it up, the Greek here means to honor or have dignity. It does not mean worship. We are to worship God.
Ex 34:14; De 4:19; 8:19; 26:10; 1Sa 15:30; 2Ki 18:22; Ps 81:9; 99:5,9; Isa 36:7; 46:6; Da 3:15,28; Mt 4:10; Lu 4:8; Joh 4:24; Ac 7:42-43; 17:23; 18:13; 24:14; 1Co 14:25; Php 3:3; Heb 1:6; Re 11:1; 14:7; 19:10; 22:9

I did not say the woman in Rev 12:1-17 was the Catholic Church; I said that Rev 12:1-17 describes the first Marian apparation. In other words, this is the first recorded vision of Mary in her heavenly glory.
In Rev 12:1-17, John sees a woman in glory and this woman “brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.” In Rev 19:11-16, he who “will rule them [the nations] with a rod of iron” is called “The Word of God.” This is an obvious reference to Jesus Christ. Therefore, the obvious interpretation of the woman in Rev 12:1-17 is Jesus’ mother, Mary. That Christians, “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus,” are the offspring of Mary is confirmed by Jesus himself in John 19:26-27:

That is a blatant lie, because if you read the context of the whole chapter it is referring to the nation of Israel. When did Mary have to go and hide herself in the rocks (caves) and be nourished by God until the judgement is passed? If she really were as the Roman Catholic Church teaches why would she have to hide or need protection from Satan in the tribulation?

You would understand better if you did not to listen to those who take things out of context.
John 19:26-27 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
Have you ever noticed? Not once in the whole of Scripture does Jesus call her mother; He calls her woman. Always. He is God, she is the human vehicle He used to manifest Himself to the world.
Note: this is singular. He said it to Mary and then to John. Also if you pay attention to the Scriptures you would find that the reason Jesus left Mary in the care of John is because as the eldest in the family it is His responsibility to care for His mother (Jesus was fulfilling Old Testament Law, honor thy father and thy mother. Have you ever wondered why Joseph is not mentioned later in Jesus life and Mary as a follower not a co-mediatrix?). His half brothers were still in unbelief and did not believe in Him until after His resurrection. See John 7: 2 - 53. Two epistles were written by two of Jesus half brothers; James and Jude. James was the elder of the Jerusalem church and Jude wrote his epistle and evangelized for Jesus.

 

[Dismas2004]

mayra hart:

Martin Luther:

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary’s divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin…"3

/QUOTE]

Right before his death, he wrote a treatsie of sorts proclaiming just this, Praise be to God and His Mother!

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

redeemed1:

If you would bother to look it up, the Greek here means to honor or have dignity. It does not mean worship. We are to worship God.
Ex 34:14; De 4:19; 8:19; 26:10; 1Sa 15:30; 2Ki 18:22; Ps 81:9; 99:5,9; Isa 36:7; 46:6; Da 3:15,28; Mt 4:10; Lu 4:8; Joh 4:24; Ac 7:42-43; 17:23; 18:13; 24:14; 1Co 14:25; Php 3:3; Heb 1:6; Re 11:1; 14:7; 19:10; 22:9

That is a blatant lie, because if you read the context of the whole chapter it is referring to the nation of Israel. When did Mary have to go and hide herself in the rocks (caves) and be nourished by God until the judgement is passed? If she really were as the Roman Catholic Church teaches why would she have to hide or need protection from Satan in the tribulation?

You would understand better if you did not to listen to those who take things out of context.
John 19:26-27 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
Have you ever noticed? Not once in the whole of Scripture does Jesus call her mother; He calls her woman. Always. He is God, she is the human vehicle He used to manifest Himself to the world.
Note: this is singular. He said it to Mary and then to John. Also if you pay attention to the Scriptures you would find that the reason Jesus left Mary in the care of John is because as the eldest in the family it is His responsibility to care for His mother (Jesus was fulfilling Old Testament Law, honor thy father and thy mother. Have you ever wondered why Joseph is not mentioned later in Jesus life and Mary as a follower not a co-mediatrix?). His half brothers were still in unbelief and did not believe in Him until after His resurrection. See John 7: 2 - 53. Two epistles were written by two of Jesus half brothers; James and Jude. James was the elder of the Jerusalem church and Jude wrote his epistle and evangelized for Jesus.

I had just thanked you for being kind in another thread, but I guess the venom has been let loose.He calls her woman to fulfill what had been told to satan in the garden of eden!Jesus loved his mother and so do we! She was a gift from God,but you can’t recognise that because your scared of God! You think he exists to gain pleasure by hurling people to hell.God DOES NOT have a inferiority complex! You bury the gifts he has given you and all Christians because your afraid he is going to smite you! And your idea of God spills over into venom at other Christians!You actually called a poster a LIAR:banghead: Shame on you