The Immaculate Conception of Mary or just a myth.

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The Immaculate Conception of Mary (that she was born sinless). This belief was declared by Pope Pius the Ninth on December 8, 1854. This is the teaching that Mary was born without original sin. My answer follows—Catholics believe Jesus could not have been born sinless unless Mary was also born sinless. If that logic were true, then Mary could not have been born sinless unless both her parents were also…ad infinitum back to Adam! That gives us millions of sinless people. And where did they come from? Not from Adam and Eve, because all their descendants were sinners. So that doesn’t work. Was Mary made “without original sin” by some special act of God, unrevealed in the Scriptures? If so, He could just as easily have done that with Christ – which He did not do. How was Jesus born sinless then? Because sin is passed through the father, not the mother, and Jesus did not have a descendant of Adam for His Father. The Bible explains it: Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Paul here teaches that Adam’s sin caused all to be sinners, except Christ who was not born of man, but is the seed of the woman. Adam was the figure of Him Who was to come, that is, Christ Himself. Just as the first Adam brought sin to everyone who is born of Adam, the Last Adam (Christ: 1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.) brought righteousness to all who are born again, born the second time, of the Spirit of God. Rom 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Also, please read Luke 1:46-49, where Mary confesses her need of a Saviour, and Matthew 12:46-50 where Christ refuses to give Mary special honor. See Matthew 1:24-25 and Matthew 13:54-56 as evidence that Mary did not remain a virgin after Christ was born, and that she indeed had a houseful of children through natural conception with Joseph. See also Hebrews 13 where God says “…marriage is honorable in all and the bed undefiled.” Sex between a husband and wife in marriage is holy, and there is no sin involved with it.
So why did it take 1800 plus year to get this revelation from God about a Immaculate conception. Well it took so long because it is a fairy tail that is not from God at all. It is made up. Not in the bible nor in the scriptures period. Makes you really think about were they pope leading you.
 
Nowhere in Scripture eh? Hmmmmm…

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God’s Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.
2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.
1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.
1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.
Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke’s conspicuous comparison’s between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.
Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.
Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.
Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.
Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the “woman” clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.
Rev 12:1 - the “woman” that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.
Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary’s offspring are those who keep God’s commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.
Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary’s offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.
Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.
Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.
Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.
Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.
Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.
Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.
Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.

Theology is a progressive science Joseph. Our faith is not dead, entombed, forgotten- Jesus lives! And the revelation of faith continues!
 
Luke 1:28: Hail Mary full of grace…also supports such a doctrine as does Christian tradition. Once again, just because doctrine was officially defined does not mean it did not previously exist. Why so many harsh attacks on the Blessed Virgin Mary? Even if she were not as blessed as the Bible and tradition do speak, is such slander and degredation necessary?
 
Rye-Guy said:
Even if she were not as blessed as the Bible and tradition do speak, is such slander and degredation necessary?
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Well said Rye-Guy, it would not be charitable to speak of any person like this- let alone the Theotokos~ Mother of God!
 
Joseph Smith,

New to the forums…?..Try searching the threads to read the numenrous posts that have covered your same well worn attacks.

Thanks for your “caring concern” but the Church is the source of the New Testament writings. Those scriptures are the inspired word of God through human hands.

The Church pre-dates the New Testament and the other early Christian writings. It is the Church who complied preserved, copied and protected these writings. The Church who is guided, protected and inspired by the Holy Spirit. I’ll place my trust in the Church that Jesus founded and who has stood the test of time fro the Apostles to today.

Your theology and insights are less than a few hundred years old and based upon your “name” you probably are a reader of a ‘dictated by God’ sompilation, the Book of Mormon. At least read the other threads and posts; please try some new [more original] angle…

Even the original reformers believed in Mary’s immaculate conception and perpetual viginity. Jesus, the Word Made Flesh, was carried in the Ark of the New Covenant according to the New Testament. Read scripture and see the similarities between the two.

If the ark that carried the Manna, the Word of God, and Aaron’s staff had to be pure and untouched and untouchable [on penalty of death] how much more so the Ark of the New Covenant, Mary?
 
Joseph_Smith said:
The Immaculate Conception of Mary (that she was born sinless). This belief was declared by Pope Pius the Ninth on December 8, 1854. This is the teaching that Mary was born without original sin. My answer follows—Catholics believe Jesus could not have been born sinless unless Mary was also born sinless. If that logic were true, then Mary could not have been born sinless unless both her parents were also…ad infinitum back to Adam! .
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Mary was created to carry God in her womb. Her parents did not have to be sinless because The Immaculate Conception was not for her benefit, it was for Jesus’s. It doesn’t matter if her parents and grandparents were sinless, as none of them carried the incarnation of God in their bodies.

Have you ever read about the Ark of God? No one could touch it except a select few. Why? Because the Ark was supposed to carry God in it. Did God change from the Old Testament to the New? By the way, because the Ark could not be touched by everyday Hebrews of the time, does that mean that the trees that it was built of couldn’t be touched? Of course not, because the Ark was sacred by itself, it was sacred for God.

Mary was the Ark made flesh, she was carrying God.
 
Joseph_Smith said:
So why did it take 1800 plus year to get this revelation from God about a Immaculate conception. Well it took so long because it is a fairy tail that is not from God at all. It is made up. Not in the bible nor in the scriptures period. Makes you really think about were they pope leading you.
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It is late and I can’t sleep due to a sore throat. Someone else more knowlegable can write the details to what I am attempting to say. But I didn’t want this quote by you to get lost in your long post.

The Catholic Church doesn’t make rulings on certain doctrines unless a question arises about said doctrine. That doesn’t mean that the doctrine wasn’t around before that time, simply that no one questioned its truthfulness up until that time.

So, if no one doubted that Mary was the Immaculate Conception until some time in the 1800’s, the Catholic Church would not issue any kind of statement about it.
 
I really don’t understand the concept of Original Sin being transported through the sperm…that would put sin as something that inflicted on the body not the soul. And sin is clearly inflicted upon the soul.
 
deb1 said:
The Catholic Church doesn’t make rulings on certain doctrines unless a question arises about said doctrine. That doesn’t mean that the doctrine wasn’t around before that time, simply that no one questioned its truthfulness up until that time.

So, if no one doubted that Mary was the Immaculate Conception until some time in the 1800’s, the Catholic Church would not issue any kind of statement about it.
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👍
 
Joseph_Smith said:
My answer follows—Catholics believe Jesus could not have been born sinless unless Mary was also born sinles.
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Only one problem with this logic of yours. Catholics do not believe this. If you are going to make an argument of what Catholics believe, then maybe it should be something that Catholics do indeed believe, These strawmen arguments don’t work here.

One explaination about Mary being born with out sin that I kind of liked was the comparison between Mary and Eve.
Since Eve was with out original sin when she said Yes to an angel,(a fallen one, Satan), then it would be appropriate that Mary would also be without original sin when she said yes to an Angel,(Gabriel), Eve’s yes brought death, and Mary’s yes brought life.

There is more to this logic, but this is the just of it.

Mary Did not have to be without sin to be the mother of God, but God allowed this Grace to her.
It was because of the Blood of Jesus that Mary was born without sin, just as it is for us when we are cleansed of our sins by Jesus when we accept him as our personal Lord and Savior and are baptized, God allowed this Grace to happen to Mary at the moment of her conception.

And no you will not find a scripture verse that states this, but why do you assume that every thing that a Christian believes is only found in the Bible?
I believe in the Trinity, I worship on Sunday, I believe the the 27 books of the New Testament are inspired. None of these beliefs are found in the Bible.
 
Your profile shows you are a protestant which would suggest you are one of our separated brethern. However your name is unfortunate as it suggests you are mormon which is not a protestant denomination but actually a false religion.
Anyway assuming you are a protestant meaning of those who broke away from the church 500 years ago you might be interested to know your founder Martin Luther believed in and documented that Mary was free from sin.

I posted these in another thread on this topic:

A sermon by Martin Luther, from his Wartburg Church Postil, 1521-1522.
You can show the site (which is a Lutheran one) to your wife.
Just scroll way down until you reach Luke and the The Birth of Jesus.

monergism.com/thethreshol…r.html#sermons
  1. It is well known what is meant by giving birth. Mary’s experience was not different from that of other women, so that the birth of Christ was a real natural birth, Mary being his natural mother and he being her natural son. **Therefore her body performed its functions of giving birth, which naturally belonged to it, except that she brought forth without sin, without shame, without pain and without injury, just as she had conceived without sin. **The curse of Eve did not come on her, where God said: “In pain thou shalt bring forth children,” Gen. 3: 16; otherwise it was with her in every particular as with every woman who gives birth to a child.
 
Just for you information i am not mormon. It seems to me you have over looked this scripture which God gave for your protection. The word of God is profitable foe the casting down of imaginations. And that is what mary being the Arc is and that is what Immaculate Conception is. For Immaculate conception to be true God would have to be a lier. I will assure you he is not.
The scripture of God is writen by men whom were inspirited by the Holy Spirit. God authored the holy scriptures in effect.
The holy scriptures tell us that SIN entered into the whole world. That ALL had sined. That word all include Mary. Sin passes via the fathers blood line. Mary had a father and he was a sinner and mary was a sinner. Jesus on the other hand was with out sin because he had not earthly father. Mary does have a earthly father. Jesus was in existiance before the foundaton of the worlds. Mary was a human. They came some time latter.
Thus to hold such a thinking as the Immaculate conception of Mary is in effect calling God and his holy spirit a lier. Mary is a favored vessel but not divine and no co-equal with Christ and not a redeemer of any of mankind. At the wedding where Jesus turned water into wine. He rebuked mary did he not. Declared her woman, not mother.
The new testiment is clear on her role and it is also clear that Jesus alone the redeemer of man kind and that mary in no way is our hope or redeemer or divine.
 
Joseph_Smith said:
Just for you information i am not mormon. It seems to me you have over looked this scripture which God gave for your protection. The word of God is profitable foe the casting down of imaginations. And that is what mary being the Arc is and that is what Immaculate Conception is. For Immaculate conception to be true God would have to be a lier. I will assure you he is not.
The scripture of God is writen by men whom were inspirited by the Holy Spirit. God authored the holy scriptures in effect.
The holy scriptures tell us that SIN entered into the whole world. That ALL had sined. That word all include Mary. Sin passes via the fathers blood line. Mary had a father and he was a sinner and mary was a sinner. Jesus on the other hand was with out sin because he had not earthly father. Mary does have a earthly father. Jesus was in existiance before the foundaton of the worlds. Mary was a human. They came some time latter.
Thus to hold such a thinking as the Immaculate conception of Mary is in effect calling God and his holy spirit a lier. Mary is a favored vessel but not divine and no co-equal with Christ and not a redeemer of any of mankind. At the wedding where Jesus turned water into wine. He rebuked mary did he not. Declared her woman, not mother.
The new testiment is clear on her role and it is also clear that Jesus alone the redeemer of man kind and that mary in no way is our hope or redeemer or divine.
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i dont believe that God is a liar , i just don’t nessearilly believe that “All” nessesarilly means "every single person"especially since there are many places in the bible where all does NOT mean every single person. speaking of believing God, i beleive that God kept his promise in genesis 3:15 when he promised that both the seed AND the woman would be be at emnity with the devil. i don’t see how mary could be at complete emnity witht he devil if she were a sinner. i also do not see how mary could be full of grace (ketaretomine) if she was a sinner either.

speaking of the ark of the covanent, i believe the burden of proof is on you to explain why the vestle which contained the word of God in the old testament would be more pure and undefiled than the vestle which bore the word made flesh in the new testament.
 
Joseph_Smith said:
Just for you information i am not mormon.
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Well, ye cannae blame folk…Yehttp://bestsmileys.com/clueless/7.gif picked the name, laddy; yehttp://bestsmileys.com/clueless/7.gif have to live w’ the fallout…
It seems to me you have over looked this scripture which God gave for your protection.
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And it seems to me as ye have overlooked what Catholics actually believe.
And that is what mary being the Arc is and that is what Immaculate Conception is.
For Immaculate conception to be true God would have to be a lier. I will assure you he is not.
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Ah, weel, & :cool: your assurance means :rolleyes: so much to me, yean.
. That ALL had sined. That word all include Mary. Sin passes via the fathers blood line. Mary had a father and he was a sinner and mary was a sinner. Jesus on the other hand was with out sin because he had not earthly father. Mary does have a earthly father. Jesus was in existiance before the foundaton of the worlds. Mary was a human. They came some time latter.
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Ah, but, yean, that would make me & all women, as well as Mary, sinless! Ye need to think thru your argument, laddy, ye’re making:whacky: nonsense!!
. Mary is a favored vessel but not divine and no co-equal with Christ and not a redeemer of any of mankind.
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:whistle: Ye really need to read a wee bit, yean! Twould do ye no end of good, to find out what people actually believe, before engaging 'em.
Not as much fun, mayhap, but still…:rolleyes:
At the wedding where Jesus turned water into wine. He rebuked mary did he not. Declared her woman, not mother.
The new testiment is clear on her role and it is also clear that Jesus alone the redeemer of man kind and that mary in no way is our hope or redeemer or divine.
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**He did NOT any such wickedness!! **
And ye had best pray that I am right here, & you wrong! For if Jesus “rebuked” His mother, He sinned.He broke the commandment: “Honor thy father and thy mother”!!
And if He sinned, He was no perfect Sacrifice for sin, & we are all of us, every person on this Planet Earth, going straight to hell. For, laddy, there then “remaineth no sacrifice for sins”!!
 
Mary is not God and catholics d make her one nor do we worship Mary.
  • Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Mary carried the “Word Made Flesh” just as the Ark carried the word of God, the wirtings of Moses.
  • Mary carried Jesus in her womb. Jesus is the “Flesh that came down from heaven” that replaces the manna that was provided to the Israelites. The manna was also contained in the original Ark.
  • Jesus is the High priest and Shephard. The original Ark carried the staff of Aaron the high priest. Shephards also carry staffs.
  • Mary was highly favored and ‘full of grace’ All generations shall cal her “Blessed” The original ark was hand crafted at the direction of God, perfect in every way. Mary, similarly was created by God and made perfect by her Savior [saved just as we are by Jesus at her conception] “In the womb I knew you and called you by name.”
  • Mary remained a virgin, the spouse of the Holy Spirit, all of her life. Undefiled, just as the original ark which could not be touched upon penalty of death, even if one reached out to prevent the ark from falling.
  • David went out into the hill country to greet the ark and leapt for joy. Mary goes into the hill country and John the baptist leaps for joy.
    The parallels are there for all to see, except for those who rewrite Christian history and belief to suit their own agendas…what is your purpose posting here? To insult Jesus by insulting His Church, the community of believers that comprise the foundation of the Christian faith? To insult His “Blessed” mother? To insult God by misusing Holy Scripture? What is it you expect to accomplish with your posts?
 
Joseph_Smith said:
It seems to me you have over looked this scripture which God gave for your protection. The word of God is profitable foe the casting down of imaginations.
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Really? And just where in the Word of God will I find that verse. I have looked and I think you made that one up. If so then how can you claim to be a Bible only believer and a a prophet of God?
 
Didn’t you know Church Militant, that Joseph Smith has been “annointed” with the gift of interpreting scriptures. In one post he stated that
Imagination is cast down by scripture, not me i have given scripture you have not. You are dealing in mystic teaching i am speaking about the word of God.
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which essentially states that he has the ‘word of God’ and that he [Joseph Smith] has been given scriptures we do not have. We only have imaginations and mystic teachings…that is why he can substitute words into the scriptural passages he uses that are not found in any bible [even at the local Baptist Church].
 
YADA said:
Mary is not God and catholics d make her one nor do we worship Mary.
  • Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Mary carried the “Word Made Flesh” just as the Ark carried the word of God, the wirtings of Moses.
  • Mary carried Jesus in her womb. Jesus is the “Flesh that came down from heaven” that replaces the manna that was provided to the Israelites. The manna was also contained in the original Ark.
  • Jesus is the High priest and Shephard. The original Ark carried the staff of Aaron the high priest. Shephards also carry staffs.
  • Mary was highly favored and ‘full of grace’ All generations shall cal her “Blessed” The original ark was hand crafted at the direction of God, perfect in every way. Mary, similarly was created by God and made perfect by her Savior [saved just as we are by Jesus at her conception] “In the womb I knew you and called you by name.”
  • Mary remained a virgin, the spouse of the Holy Spirit, all of her life. Undefiled, just as the original ark which could not be touched upon penalty of death, even if one reached out to prevent the ark from falling.
  • David went out into the hill country to greet the ark and leapt for joy. Mary goes into the hill country and John the baptist leaps for joy.
    The parallels are there for all to see, except for those who rewrite Christian history and belief to suit their own agendas…what is your purpose posting here? To insult Jesus by insulting His Church, the community of believers that comprise the foundation of the Christian faith? To insult His “Blessed” mother? To insult God by misusing Holy Scripture? What is it you expect to accomplish with your posts?
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1643785&postcount=16

similar to what YADA already said but fruitful nevertheless.
 
Having answered the OP’s question, this thread is now closed.
 
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