The "Immaculate Conception" of St. John the Baptist

[NotWorthy]

Would I be taking the thread too far off base if I bring up the point that, “if John was filled with the Holy Spirit during the 6th month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, then that proves that we all have a soul as a fetus?” Seems pretty convincing to me!

Notworthy

 

[Tom]

Orionthehunter:

You seem to be quite sure of this. Neither my interpretation of the Scripture nor what I’ve read from others makes it conclusive. Do you have some additional references?
In my reading, the operative phrase is from Luke 1:15 (“he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb”) or known as from the Canticle of Zechariah. Since this was proclaimed prior to John’s conception, I’m not sure that is is definitive that the filling with the Holy Spirit was prophetized to occurr when Mary visited Elizabeth or earlier up to the moment of conception.
I’m not disagreeing. I’m just not seeing the clarity that your post implies. Your insight would be appreciated.

I understand what you are saying. No special knowledge here. My logic is this: Taken separately, (Luke 1, 15 and Luke 1, 41) you could reason John could have been conceived immaculately, however taken together, as Scripture was originally written, they are (to me) obviously speaking of the same event. Of course our numbering system was not used in the original, it’s simply to help us.
Keeping Luke in context, Luke 1,15 with Luke 1,41, seems fairly clear that they are referring to the same event.
drbo.org:

Luke 1, 13 But the angel said to him: Fear not, Zachary, for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John: 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness, and many shall rejoice in his nativity. 15 For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.
Luke 1, 39 And Mary rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda. 40 And she entered into the house of Zachary, and saluted Elizabeth. 41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.

To me this is clearly when John was filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Tom:

I understand what you are saying. No special knowledge here. My logic is this: Taken separately, (Luke 1, 15 and Luke 1, 41) you could reason John could have been conceived immaculately, however taken together, as Scripture was originally written, they are (to me) obviously speaking of the same event. Of course our numbering system was not used in the original, it’s simply to help us.
Keeping Luke in context, Luke 1,15 with Luke 1,41, seems fairly clear that they are referring to the same event.
To me this is clearly when John was filled with the Holy Spirit.

You certainly might be correct. But note that Luke 1:41 is in two sentences. “And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost”. John leaped and then Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. John could have been previously cleansed of Original Sin and Elizabeth was filled by the Presence.

Good try but I’m still not convinced. But I also don’t know how critical it is either. In both cases he was born w/o O.S. Either at conception John never was stained w/ O.S. or in utero, John was cleansed and then born without original sin.

 

[porthos11]

Orionthehunter:

You certainly might be correct. But note that Luke 1:41 is in two sentences. “And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost”. John leaped and then Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. John could have been previously cleansed of Original Sin and Elizabeth was filled by the Presence.

Good try but I’m still not convinced. But I also don’t know how critical it is either. In both cases he was born w/o O.S. Either at conception John never was stained w/ O.S. or in utero, John was cleansed and then born without original sin.

It’s probably clearer to say that Jesus baptized John before birth, therefore, John was born already in a state of grace. The Gospel passages cited seem to strongly point to it, considering the Holy Spirit working in all of them.

However, it is a belief of popular piety, one we are free to ignore. It is neither a matter of faith nor a heresy.

 

[gelsbern]

You might find this interetsting.

from newadvent.org/cathen/08486b.htm

Now during the sixth month, the Annunciation had taken place, and, as Mary had heard from the angel the fact of her cousin’s conceiving, she went “with haste” to congratulate her. “And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant” – filled, like the mother, with the Holy Ghost – “leaped for joy in her womb”, as if to acknowledge the presence of his Lord. Then was accomplished the prophetic utterance of the angel that the child should “be filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mother’s womb”. Now as the presence of any sin whatever is incompatible with the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in the soul, it follows that at this moment John was cleansed from the stain of original sin.

 

[Lastlaugh]

I only heard this belief recently, also, and was quite shocked. It isn’t official doctrine and very little is said/taught around it today. There is more to it than saying Mary’s was a conception and John’s a birth. Mary was conceived without original sin to be the All Holy, full of grace and fit to be the dwelling place of the Word, the Theotokos. She also cut off an old spiritual ‘bloodline’ allowing a new creation.

John was a prophet, albeit the most important prophet as he stood face to face with the Messiah. He was blessed, graced and purified in the womb in some sense. Just how is up for grabs. He was prepared and empowered but he wasn’t carrying the Logos within , or starting a new line, and, I don’t think, one could claim him as sinless, just as all the baptised are not sinless. We all fail and blow it.