The Immaculate Conception VS. abortion

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It seems the two of you share the same confusion.

In allowing the removal of a rutured and/or rupturing fallopian tube, the Church is
allowing a medical intervention that, in a SECONDARY way, will end a pregnancy.

In no way is an operation that results in a INDIRECT abortion
the same as the actual procedure of DIRECT abortion.

If this makes no sense to you, please look it up.
You are lacking in very common knowledge.
A planned and procurred direct abortion is worlds removed from an indirect abortion.

An INDIRECT abortion is an outcome of the treatment of an ectopic pregnancy.
Ma’am, please do not treat me in a condescending way. I’ve not treated you in such.

Direct/indirect are just fancy ways of explaining the intent.

In medical terms, they are both abortions.

I’ve have 3 abortions, the spontaneous kind, also known as miscarriages. The doctors refer to them as spontaneous abortions. I rather did a double take when I saw that on some medical record of mine.

However, I’m sure the surgical consent form, will say SOMETHING about an abortion, otherwise there would be NO procedure to save the mother’s life.

If you want to call this type of abortion indirect, fine, feel free to do so. I will call it ending a life to save the mother’s life, and we will both be correct.

Janice
 
Ma’am, please do not treat me in a condescending way. Back at you.
I’ve not treated you in such. Sure you have.

Direct/indirect are just fancy ways of explaining the intent.

In medical terms, they are both abortions.

I’ve have 3 abortions, the spontaneous kind, also known as miscarriages. The doctors refer to them as spontaneous abortions. I rather did a double take when I saw that on some medical record of mine.

However, I’m sure the surgical consent form, will say SOMETHING about an abortion, otherwise there would be NO procedure to save the mother’s life.

If you want to call this type of abortion indirect, fine, feel free to do so. I will call it ending a life to save the mother’s life, and we will both be correct.

Janice
**
Your use of the term “abortion” is used in medical practice.
My use of the term “abortion,” direct and indirect, is used in Church teaching.

You want to shock folks? Fine. Claim you’ve had three abortions.
Medically accurate, but theologically ridiculous.

If you plan to discuss such things in an effective way, use the commonly known terms. Don’t take offense where none is given.

Now, my sympathy on the loss of your children.**
 
Ma’am, please do not treat me in a condescending way. I’ve not treated you in such.

Direct/indirect are just fancy ways of explaining the intent.

In medical terms, they are both abortions.

I’ve have 3 abortions, the spontaneous kind, also known as miscarriages. The doctors refer to them as spontaneous abortions. I rather did a double take when I saw that on some medical record of mine.

However, I’m sure the surgical consent form, will say SOMETHING about an abortion, otherwise there would be NO procedure to save the mother’s life.

If you want to call this type of abortion indirect, fine, feel free to do so. I will call it ending a life to save the mother’s life, and we will both be correct.

Janice
Janice, I’m sorry for your three miscarriages. My grandmother had seven before she was blessed (and/or I was blessed) to have my mom. And when she went in for a caesarean, she came out with a baby and a total hysterectomy without her consent…because those were the days. Anyways…

I also don’t really understand the rationale between distinguishing indirect/direct in cases such as tubal pregnancy because, you’re right, both have the same exact end result with the only change being with direct abortion, you can preseve the tube and fertility of the woman. The intent is completely the same. I would think that the Church would want to preserve the tube to ensure the woman is better able to fulfill her obligation to have more children in the future. Ah well, it’s not the first time I find the teachings contradictory or nonsensical. We just have to do the best we can to try and make sense of it all.

As for treatment, your OR schedule will probably list a Salpingectomy with laparotomy if you’re in a Catholic hospital. That’s usually the only option in a Catholic hospital. And if you’re not in a Catholic hospital, the other option would be Salpingostomy (where they cut a slit in the fallopian tube and remove the dying fetus and try to repair the fallopian tube) with laparotomy. The Salpingostomy is against the rules of the Church as it’s considered a direct abortion. And a laparotomy is just cutting into the abdomen. I don’t know if they can do it laparoscopically (little holes instead of incisions), usually not.

And more and more, methotrexate is used in the early stages, to flush out the dying embryo before the fallopian tube is ruptured, but this is also against the teachings of the Church because it’s considered a direct abortion. That’s not done in the OR, so I don’t know what that would be listed as from the doctor’s office.
 
No, I am most definitely not confused 🙂 It’s right here:
nccbuscc.org/bishops/directives.shtml

If a woman has tested negative for ovulation (which means she has not ovulated yet, or is not ovulating) or negative pregnancy, plan b’s job is to prevent ovulation from occuring. This is to prevent a forced conception from happening in the first place.

And thankfully the Bishops can’t control emergency rooms. All the ones surrounding my area give Plan B to rape victims with only a negative pregnancy test. No ovulation test is required.
I hope the above Bishops were not thinking of Plan B as it is also an abortificant.

dad29.blogspot.com/2007/06/morning-after-plan-b-pill-yes-its.html
Sunday, June 03, 2007

“Morning-After” (Plan B) Pill: Yes, It’s an Abortifacient
Earlier, based on (now-outdated) knowledge, the Catholic Bishops of Wisconsin decided not to oppose SB129. This new finding may well require them to change their position on the Bill.

It’s about forcing Wisconsin hospitals to administer “Plan B” (the morning after pill) to victims of rape. Since “Wisconsin hospitals” includes “Wisconsin Catholic hospitals,” there is a moral problem here: can the State force a Catholic institution to facilitate an abortion?

Here’s the latest study on the drug in question:

The most recent scientific study on Levonorgestrel, the essential component of the “morning-after pill” or “emergency contraceptive,” confirms that the drug does indeed have a third effect on users, which consists in preventing the implantation of a fertilized ovum in the womb of the mother.

The promoters of the drug in Latin America, where most countries have laws against abortion, have argued that the there is no scientific basis for the “third effect,” and that therefore the drug should be legalized. Dr. Horacio Croxatto, professor at the Chilean Institute of Reproductive Medicine, said in 2006 that the morning-after pill “is not abortifacient because it only prevents pregnancy by stopping ovulation.”

Nevertheless, the most recent study (2007) by Doctors Mikolajczyk and Stanford of the Department of Medicine in Public Health of the University of Bielefeld (Germany) clearly indicates that the pill’s “real effect” includes mechanisms that prevent implantation.
Published by the magazine Fertility and Sterility, the study used data from multiple clinical studies with advanced mathematical models and concluded that if emergency contraception only inhibited ovulation its true effectiveness would only be in a range of 8-49 percent. If it acted before ovulation and if it inhibited ovulation completely, its true effectiveness would be between 16-90 percent. The rest of the pill’s effectiveness consists in its anti-implantation mechanisms, which cause an abortion.

There are more problems with “Plan B,” some of which are mentioned in this post, having to do with a similar proposal in Connecticut. The pill was approved by FDA without the necessary rulemaking; it was found “unsafe” by FDA without medical supervision; and the data submitted to FDA did not establish that it was safe or effective. One would think that Planned Parenthood could be a bit more restrained in pushing for a pill which does not have adequate data supporting its safety.

Or not.

Before this study, it was thought that “Plan B” did not have an abortifacient effect–thus, the Bishops chose not to oppose based on the “Peoria Protocol.”

With the new information in hand, the Bishops will re-think their position.
[

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/experts_confirm_abortifacient_potential_of_morningafter_pill/]()

Experts confirm abortifacient potential of morning-after pill

CNA STAFF, May 25, 2007 / 11:33 am (CNA).- The most recent scientific study on Levonorgestrel, the essential component of the “morning-after pill” or “emergency contraceptive,” confirms that the drug does indeed have a third effect on users, which consists in preventing the implantation of a fertilized ovum in the womb of the mother.
The promoters of the drug in Latin America, where most countries have laws against abortion, have argued that the there is no scientific basis for the “third effect,” and that therefore the drug should be legalized. Dr. Horacio Croxatto, professor at the Chilean Institute of Reproductive Medicine, said in 2006 that the morning-after pill “is not abortifacient because it only prevents pregnancy by stopping ovulation.”
Nevertheless, the most recent study (2007) by Doctors Mikolajczyk and Stanford of the Department of Medicine in Public Health of the University of Bielefeld (Germany) clearly indicates that the pill’s “real effect” includes mechanisms that prevent implantation.

Published by the magazine Fertility and Sterility, the study used data from multiple clinical studies with advanced mathematical models and concluded that if emergency contraception only inhibited ovulation its true effectiveness would only be in a range of 8-49 percent. If it acted before ovulation and IF it inhibited ovulation completely, its true effectiveness would be between 16-90 percent. The rest of the pill’s effectiveness consists in its anti-implantation mechanisms, which cause an abortion.

I do not know how the Bishops can make a statement such as you have said AND IS IN the document unless they know without a doubt there is a mediction that only PREVENTS ovulation. Even in this it would be stretching it to say even this could be done as nothing artificial such as a contraceptive can be used to prevent life.

The Bishops I would say are not on theologically sound ground. Why they have not change their directions, I do not understand.

These are only two websites that state Plan B is an abortificant. I am sure you could find more.
 
I hope the above Bishops were not thinking of Plan B as it is also an abortificant.
That’s why a test is given to determine whether ovulation has taken place or is taking place. If the test reveals that ovulation has taken place, there is a risk that conception may have taken place, that’s why the Bishops want the test. If the test reveals that ovulation already took place, there’s a risk that conception may have taken place, that’s why the Bishops want the test. BUT, if the test reveals that ovulation hasn’t occured yet, taking plan B will prevent ovulation from happening. Therefore, it can’t act as an abortificant, it simply prevents conception by preventing ovulation. There is no reason why a rape victim can’t take plan B if a test proves that they aren’t and haven’t ovulated yet, except to subject her to a forced pregnancy brought on by rape.

I’m glad that the Bishops have determined that Plan B after a rape is acceptable, for the sake of the woman who was raped. Personally, I’m disappointed about the “ovulation test” requirement, but that’ll probably change down the road for rape victims. It’s just a matter of time.
 
No, I am most definitely not confused 🙂 It’s right here:
nccbuscc.org/bishops/directives.shtml

If a woman has tested negative for ovulation (which means she has not ovulated yet, or is not ovulating) or negative pregnancy, plan b’s job is to prevent ovulation from occuring. This is to prevent a forced conception from happening in the first place.

And thankfully the Bishops can’t control emergency rooms. All the ones surrounding my area give Plan B to rape victims with only a negative pregnancy test. No ovulation test is required.
Catharina, I agree with you, up to a point. That point, ectopic pregnancy. The baby is doomed, the mother is not unless the pregnancy continues. Is there a way to detach a baby from the fallopian tube, once it has become attached, and reattach it in the uterus? I’ve not heard of this happening. If the baby continues to grow, the tube will burst and the baby will die, even the mother will be very ill, perhaps even fatally so, due to the extreme loos of blood.

The baby is going to die anyway. Does the mother have to do so, too, just to prove a point?

Catholics can not be pro-choice. However, when one experiences an ectopic pregnancy, there really is no choice.

The abortion, in the case of the ectopic pregnancy, would not be done to terminate the pregnancy, that would already be the outcome. The abortion would ONLY be done to save the life of the mother.

Janice
The fallopian tube is cut above and below the baby, thus removing the “diseased” organ, the fallopian tube. It is NOT a DIRECT abortion, but an attempt to take care of an unfortunate physical abnormality.
 
That’s why a test is given to determine whether ovulation has taken place or is taking place. If the test reveals that ovulation has taken place, there is a risk that conception may have taken place, that’s why the Bishops want the test. If the test reveals that ovulation already took place, there’s a risk that conception may have taken place, that’s why the Bishops want the test. BUT, if the test reveals that ovulation hasn’t occured yet, taking plan B will prevent ovulation from happening. Therefore, it can’t act as an abortificant, it simply prevents conception by preventing ovulation. There is no reason why a rape victim can’t take plan B if a test proves that they aren’t and haven’t ovulated yet, except to subject her to a forced pregnancy brought on by rape.

I’m glad that the Bishops have determined that Plan B after a rape is acceptable, for the sake of the woman who was raped. Personally, I’m disappointed about the “ovulation test” requirement, but that’ll probably change down the road for rape victims. It’s just a matter of time.
Just think MAYBE one day they will say abortion is the only way to take care of an unwanted pregnancy.:rolleyes:

Then we can have a reformed catholic church that has a lay committee that can choose the doctrines its members may, or may not choose to follow. That’s the way its done in most protestant churches. Why shouldn’t the Catholic Church fold and just become another church in the melting pot? We are on the way there anyway. :mad:
 
Just think MAYBE one day they will say abortion is the only way to take care of an unwanted pregnancy.:rolleyes:
It is…isn’t it? an unwanted pregnancy can only be “taken care of” by terminating. However, if you can get the woman to change her mind, bring the pregnancy to term, and find options regarding what to do with the baby, there are many options.
Then we can have a reformed catholic church that has a lay committee that can choose the doctrines its members may, or may not choose to follow. That’s the way its done in most protestant churches. Why shouldn’t the Catholic Church fold and just become another church in the melting pot? We are on the way there anyway. :mad:
I hope we are on our way to the Church being more reasonable and less oppressive. Allowing women to take plan b in the case of rape is a good step. It’s MORE than reasonable to acknowledge that a woman is not a brood mare and that rape has nothing to do with the Catholic obligation to be open to life, absolutely nothing. Rape is not sex. Rape is not consensual. Taking the unitive and procreative aspects required by the Church when participating in the marital embrace and applying it to a rape situation is taking the teaching out of context. Women are not living, breathing incubators, or second-class citizens, or again, brood mares. Obligating people to not to have premarital sex, and frowning on pregnacy outside of marriage, and at the same time allowing women to be forced into being pregnant against their will, when they have a viable option not to be, is contradictory. Women should be allowed to defend themselves against a rapist (and yes, a rapist’s sperm is an aggressor). I can understand the Church forbidding an outright abortion in the case of rape, but I can understand a woman choosing to have an abortion after rape even more. With all due respect, the people making the rules aren’t the ones being raped and forced to be pregnant. And I support women who have the strength to not have an abortion after rape if they have not received proper ER care. However, every woman should have the choice of taking or not taking Plan B in the ER after a rape. And thankfully women are more educated now and can get the help they need. It’s the younger girls who get raped that you have to worry more about.
 
It is…isn’t it? an unwanted pregnancy can only be “taken care of” by terminating. However, if you can get the woman to change her mind, bring the pregnancy to term, and find options regarding what to do with the baby, there are many options.

I hope we are on our way to the Church being more reasonable and less oppressive. Allowing women to take plan b in the case of rape is a good step. It’s MORE than reasonable to acknowledge that a woman is not a brood mare and that rape has nothing to do with the Catholic obligation to be open to life, absolutely nothing. Rape is not sex. Rape is not consensual. Taking the unitive and procreative aspects required by the Church when participating in the marital embrace and applying it to a rape situation is taking the teaching out of context. Women are not living, breathing incubators, or second-class citizens, or again, brood mares. Obligating people to not to have premarital sex, and frowning on pregnacy outside of marriage, and at the same time allowing women to be forced into being pregnant against their will, when they have a viable option not to be, is contradictory. Women should be allowed to defend themselves against a rapist (and yes, a rapist’s sperm is an aggressor). I can understand the Church forbidding an outright abortion in the case of rape, but I can understand a woman choosing to have an abortion after rape even more. With all due respect, the people making the rules aren’t the ones being raped and forced to be pregnant. And I support women who have the strength to not have an abortion after rape if they have not received proper ER care. However, every woman should have the choice of taking or not taking Plan B in the ER after a rape. And thankfully women are more educated now and can get the help they need. It’s the younger girls who get raped that you have to worry more about.
**Typical rence.
So much for the right to life, huh?
So much for the sacredness of each immortal soul?

It’s the younger girls and younger boys, in utero, who should be the focus of our “worry.” Unless, of course, you imagine you’re “God-rence” - then forget about the new life? Forget too about the horror of a mother killing her child. Sure.**
 
Rence. so you understand the Church’s point of view…let me explain.
  1. the chuirch does not oppose emergency contraception for rape victims.
  2. The church opposes abortion in all forms.
  3. The pregnancy test is given to determine that the woman is not pregnant.
  4. The ovulation test is given to see if she has ovulated.
  5. Why? Life begins at conception. Plan - B works in 2 ways

    a. it stops ovulation.
    Code:
    b.  it stops (name removed by moderator)lantation
  6. If ovulation already occurred…what will be stopped? Implantation. It would be a very early abortion.
  7. The church does not allow abortion ever.
If the urine sample is being taken for the pregancy test, the ovulation test can be administered at the same time.

Do you understand the Bishops POV now? At least perhaps try, before you accuse the Church of treating women like brood mares.
 
Rence. so you understand the Church’s point of view…let me explain…Do you understand the Bishops POV now? At least perhaps try, before you accuse the Church of treating women like brood mares.
Yes, I do understand the Church’s point of view. I understand the Bishops POV very well, and that’s why I appreciate their step in the right direction.

And I especially like Dr. William Sauder’s article regarding this matter:
catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0566.html
If these tests are not available in a timely way or at all, treatment should proceed as long as there is a reasonable doubt that ovulation has occurred.
Here again is a key point. If there is a reasonable doubt that ovulation has taken place, the right of the woman to prevent the pregnancy should be favored, even if this unknowingly and unintentionally expels a conceived ovum. However, if there is certainty that ovulation has occurred and conception may have taken place, then the child has the right to life and the mother must not risk an abortion from the antifertility drugs.
And I appreciate that excerpt because not every facility carries the ovulation test, and delaying treatment to go out of the way to obtain the test wastes precious time that could be better spent avoiding a conception. The goal is to avoid conception from happening in the first place. I do not believe the surrounding area hospitals (in my area) do the second test, only the pregnancy test.
 
It is…isn’t it? an unwanted pregnancy can only be “taken care of” by terminating. However, if you can get the woman to change her mind, bring the pregnancy to term, and find options regarding what to do with the baby, there are many options.

I hope we are on our way to the Church being more reasonable and less oppressive. Allowing women to take plan b in the case of rape is a good step. It’s MORE than reasonable to acknowledge that a woman is not a brood mare and that rape has nothing to do with the Catholic obligation to be open to life, absolutely nothing. Rape is not sex. Rape is not consensual. Taking the unitive and procreative aspects required by the Church when participating in the marital embrace and applying it to a rape situation is taking the teaching out of context. Women are not living, breathing incubators, or second-class citizens, or again, brood mares. Obligating people to not to have premarital sex, and frowning on pregnacy outside of marriage, and at the same time allowing women to be forced into being pregnant against their will, when they have a viable option not to be, is contradictory. Women should be allowed to defend themselves against a rapist (and yes, a rapist’s sperm is an aggressor). I can understand the Church forbidding an outright abortion in the case of rape, but I can understand a woman choosing to have an abortion after rape even more. With all due respect, the people making the rules aren’t the ones being raped and forced to be pregnant. And I support women who have the strength to not have an abortion after rape if they have not received proper ER care. However, every woman should have the choice of taking or not taking Plan B in the ER after a rape. And thankfully women are more educated now and can get the help they need. It’s the younger girls who get raped that you have to worry more about.
Then according to you and your approval of what the Bishops SEEM to say there is no cause to worry about that hole in the dike? Or perhaps better illustrated, open a can of worms and they will crawl out.

You denigrate the strength of a woman to be able live through a horribile event and find a Catholic way out the other side for both herself and her child. You know, those “oppressive” Church laws.
 
Then according to you and your approval of what the Bishops SEEM to say there is no cause to worry about that hole in the dike? Or perhaps better illustrated, open a can of worms and they will crawl out.

You denigrate the strength of a woman to be able live through a horribile event and find a Catholic way out the other side for both herself and her child. You know, those “oppressive” Church laws.
Agree. This is the back-handed side of
“oh, poor raped woman … let’s save you from any possible blessing
that might actually follow the horror of rape.”

Indeed, all children are a blessing, a gift from God.
Some family can be blessed by any “unplanned child.”
The child itself is an act of God’s grace, an eternal soul.

Wait though - let’s make certain there is NO child. Groovy.
Save that poor poor weak women.

PS - how many women have I known who gave birth to a child
conceived in rape? At least four - probably more than that.
 
Then according to you and your approval of what the Bishops SEEM to say there is no cause to worry about that hole in the dike? Or perhaps better illustrated, open a can of worms and they will crawl out.
There is no hole in the dike. The teaching in no way applies to situations not involving rape. It doesn’t give a green light to abortion if the woman didn’t get plan b in the ER right after the even. It also doesn’t give a green light to use contraception for birth control purposes in any way – just like allowing women to take contraceptives to treat medical reasons in no way gives a green light to use contraceptives for birth control.
You denigrate the strength of a woman to be able live through a horribile event and find a Catholic way out the other side for both herself and her child. You know, those “oppressive” Church laws.
I do no such thing. And it’s not about a “catholic ‘way out’”, it’s about having control over one’s body when control was already brutally taken away in a rape. There is no Catholic obligation to be open to live in a rape situation. It’s a Catholic means to regain control of the situation when one has been raped. The rape victim has the choice of either taking the plan b if she believes the risk is worth it (I do) and she has the choice of not taking plan b if she believes she may be ovulating and would rather not take the risk. I agree with the Bishops.
 
**
Your use of the term “abortion” is used in medical practice.
My use of the term “abortion,” direct and indirect, is used in Church teaching.

You want to shock folks? Fine. Claim you’ve had three abortions.
Medically accurate, but theologically ridiculous.

If you plan to discuss such things in an effective way, use the commonly known terms. Don’t take offense where none is given.

Now, my sympathy on the loss of your children.**
No, I don’t want to shock folks. I want to be sure you and are talking the same language. I’ve not been a student of what the Catholic Church teaches about “direct/indirect” abortions, because I would have kept every child I conceived, if it were my choice. I know elective abortion is wrong, no matter what. Therefore, why should I care what the Catholic Church teaches, since I am now past the age of fertility, and when I wasn’t, I would have died so my children could live, if that had been an option.

Please, do not expect everyone who posts on this board to know everything you do.

Janice
 
Yes, I do understand the Church’s point of view. I understand the Bishops POV very well, and that’s why I appreciate their step in the right direction.

And I especially like Dr. William Sauder’s article regarding this matter:
catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0566.html
And I appreciate that excerpt because not every facility carries the ovulation test, and delaying treatment to go out of the way to obtain the test wastes precious time that could be better spent avoiding a conception. The goal is to avoid conception from happening in the first place. I do not believe the surrounding area hospitals (in my area) do the second test, only the pregnancy test.

I’ve read the whole link and it’s obvious from what the Bishops state that they want women not to feel the continuing pain from a rape. Having been the victim of a violent, sexual crime in college, I can understand this and I’m glad that the Bishops can as well. I believe what their point is is that if a woman is raped, then there is a possibility that the sperm could stay around 5-6 days. Not every pregnancy occurs withing 12 or 24 hours. A woman is fertil about 24 hou rs a month or so my NFP book says. That means that when raped, if I’m not ovulating, then I can keep myself from becoming pregnant (which, through no fault of my own it appears could be a possibility). The Bishops recognise what they have said in past teaching. That is that life begins at “conception”. They don’t want the Plan B to be used as an “abortifacient”.

Elts says (and sorry, I’m not sure how to do multiple quotes any other way)]Then according to you and your approval of what the Bishops SEEM to say there is no cause to worry about that hole in the dike? Or perhaps better illustrated, open a can of worms and they will crawl out.

You denigrate the strength of a woman to be able live through a horribile event and find a Catholic way out the other side for both herself and her child. You know, those “oppressive” Church laws.

Now why is it that on here, it seems that I’ve seen Bishops and the CCC quoted constantly, but when a Bishop says something that you don’t agree with, then all of a sudden it’s o.k. to basically imply that they’re wrong? Is it that we’re really only supposed to go by what the Church says when we agree? If that’s the case, there should be as many forms of Catholicism as there are Protestantism…but wait - I thought that many of the Catholics who didn’t follow Church teachings (or who caused scandal by calling the hierarchy of the Church wrong) became Protestants?

Also, how is she not finding a “Catholic way out…for both herself and her child”? In the situation that is being discussed, if a woman is not pregnant nor is she ovulating, there is no child present! There may be a sperm and an egg, but even the Church says that life occurs when the egg is fertilized. Having plan B (if the woman decides to use it after the testing) IS providing her with a “Catholic way out”.

Catherina then goes on to say"Indeed, all children are a blessing, a gift from God.
Some family can be blessed by any “unplanned child.”
The child itself is an act of God’s grace, an eternal soul.

Wait though - let’s make certain there is NO child. Groovy.
Save that poor poor weak women.

I agree with you 100% Catherina, all children are a blessing. But we’re NOT talking about CHILDREN here. And we’re not talking about a married couple who has joined in the marital embrace and is experienceing an “unplanned pregnancy”. Were talking about a sperm and an egg-a sperm and an egg which have not joined. Not the sperm and egg of a married couple (unless a wife has been raped by her husband but lets assume for the time being that this woman is not married to the man raping her). Not a fertilized egg. It may seem that I’m playing with semantics here, but I promise, that is not my intent. If we follow the logic that a sperm and an egg that have not fused together but only have the “potential” to fuse and thus the sperm and egg constitute a zygote or person (as the Church says that life begins at the moment of conception), then we open a whole other topic and situation. You could then follow this logic to a conclusion that could eventually come out saying any situation where a sperm and egg are kept from creating a zygote is wrong - following that logic, one could argue that even Natural Family Planning is wrong, (at least NFP where you’re using it to put off having children), and we know that the Church tells us that a couple can use this method if they feel they have “grave” reason. Using this logic, it would almost seem that we would go back to the old situation where sex is only to be used for procreation and has no other purpose.

IMHO, I believe that the Bishops are giving a woman who has been violated and hurt,(both physically and emotionally) , they’re giving the woman the ability to use her conscience. I respect what you say, Catherina, that every child is a blessing - but even by the Catholic Church’s standards, a child is not present until conception.
*(I would like to make a note here, to make sure that it is understood that although the article that Rence provided a link to was written by a Priest and not a Bishop. But the Priest refers to the Religious and Ethical Standard for Health Care which were approved by the UCCB, this is the reason I refer to the Bishop(s) *

continued in the next response
 
I specifically used the word conscience for a reason- in the CCC it says
"1777 Moral conscience,[48] present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil.[49] It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.

1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:
[Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ.[50]

1779 It is important for every person to be sufficiently present to himself in order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience. This requirement of interiority is all the more necessary as life often distracts us from any reflection, self-examination or introspection:
Return to your conscience, question it… Turn inward, brethren, and in everything you do, see God as your witness.[51]

1780 The dignity of the human person implies and requires uprightness of moral conscience. Conscience includes the perception of the principles of morality (synderesis); their application in the given circumstances by practical discernment of reasons and goods; and finally judgment about concrete acts yet to be performed or already performed. The truth about the moral good, stated in the law of reason, is recognized practically and concretely by the prudent judgment of conscience. We call that man prudent who chooses in conformity with this judgment.

In the article that Rence noted, there is this quote from the Religious and Ethical Standards for Health Care…
Finally, health care providers must provide treatment to prevent the possible contraction of venereal disease and pregnancy. The Directives state, "A woman who has been raped may defend herself against a conception resulting from sexual assault. If, after appropriate testing, there is no evidence that conception has occurred already, she may be treated with medication that would prevent ovulation, sperm capacitation, or fertilization.
IMHO, a woman in this situation, should be able to use her conscience to make this decision. If even the Bishops agree in their statement that the woman has the right to decide if she would like to prevent a possible insimination by her rapist, I don’t see where any of us have the right to say that she would be wrong to take the Plan B contraception - especially if she was not currently ovulating but feared she might be ovulating in the next 72 hours. As far as I can tell (and apparently the UCCB feels this way as well) the woman would NOT be killing a child and she would not be having an abortion but protecting herself. And in contradiction to the statement “Save that poor poor weak women”, I do NOT believe that a woman who does this is or considers herself a “weak” woman. That insults any woman who has ever been raped, followed the teachings of the Church by making sure she was tested and was not pregnant or ovulating and then took plan B - I believe that comment was rude and uncalled for.

Rence, you said:
“I do no such thing. And it’s not about a “catholic ‘way out’”, it’s about having control over one’s body when control was already brutally taken away in a rape. There is no Catholic obligation to be open to live in a rape situation. It’s a Catholic means to regain control of the situation when one has been raped. The rape victim has the choice of either taking the plan b if she believes the risk is worth it (I do) and she has the choice of not taking plan b if she believes she may be ovulating and would rather not take the risk. I agree with the Bishops.”
Having had to deal with this situation, I can attest that Rence has a pretty good understanding of how a woman feels after being raped. Personally, one of the last things I wanted to hear after words was “your pregnant” -and one of my greatest fears was that I could become pregnant from this male - I won’t call him a man. I alreay wanted to rip my skin off from anywhere I’d been touched. The idea of carrying this male’s child made me sick. Luckily it didn’t become an issue but I was glad that I didn’t need to worry that I could become pregnant in the next few days. I agree had I become pregnant that it would have been a life - one that was precious in God’s eyes. I also admit I would have had to do a LOT of praying (not that I wasn’t already). I wasn’t able to control what happened to me, but I was able to control whether I would become pregnant in the next few days if I was about to ovulate. There are many things that I’m not sure I agree with regarding the Catholic Church, but I do my best to follow Her wisdom and to ask God for understanding. What the Bishops have said regarding a woman being rape, I do believe I understand and I’m greatful that they recognize that a woman should be able to make the decision regarding whether or not she is to become pregnant because of the sins of another and through no fault of her own.

God Bless
Schrode
 
Actually, I can kind of understand it. For instance I read a post that Fr. Serpa made some time back, saying that if a woman was using birth control for medical reasons, even if it happened that the pill worked as an “abortifacient”, the use of the pill was still acceptable.
I can probably find the quote if needed.


I also read a poster on here who had some serious medical problems and both she and the baby were going to die. **In order to save the mother, they had to allow the pregnancy to terminate (apparently, the pregnancy was too young to save). **So even though I am Catholic, I can understand why some might feel in those two situations that abotion as a last resort might be acceptable. I’m not trying to get anyone all angry or anything, I’m just trying to answer the question.

Schrode

My Lord and My God,
My Love and My Life,
Don’t leave me here all alone!
Cradel me in Your Arms,
Hold me in Your Heart,
Until You bring me Home!
Those are good examples Schrode, I can understand that too. I would be lying if I didn’t say that I certainly would not want my mother, sister, aunt, best friend, etc. do die in a lose-lose situation. So I can understand why people choose abortion when the life of the woman is in danger.

I’d like to add one. The use of emergency birth control as part of a woman’s emergency rooom treatment after a rape is discouraged by some (and given equal status to an abortion) but is being allowed by the US Bishops. They require a negative pregnancy test first, which is beyond reasonable because, of course, you don’t want to terminate a pregnancy that has nothing to do with the current rape. The other requirement is that the woman tests negative for ovulation, which I don’t agree with, but that’s the US Bishops recommendation. And I’m glad that they acknowledge what a horrible violation rape is, and that women have the right to attempt to protect themselves from further harm in a rape situation, by taking action to prevent conception from taking place. On the other hand, I understand why a woman would forgo the plan b in the case of rape. But it’s about time they were given the choice. 👍
God Bless
Schrode
Schrode, I’m (still) hoping you will provide that quote from Father Serpa.

Again, I repeat, under no circumstances, will the Catholic Church allow for abortion.
Rence has disagreed with this on other threads. I disagree with rence on many things.

I do not disagree with the Bishops.
 
Schrode, I’m (still) hoping you will provide that quote from Father Serpa.

Again, I repeat, under no circumstances, will the Catholic Church allow for abortion.
Rence has disagreed with this on other threads. I disagree with rence on many things.

I do not disagree with the Bishops.
Gladly - here is one of the time’s it’s mentioned - but it looks like you’ve seen it before because I believe I saw a thread you were on where another quoted it as well -but so you can see it again:
From Fr. Serpa:
The use of the pill for medical reasons may cause an UNintended miscarriage. Women often have unintended miscarriages—sometimes without even knowing it. It is only miscarriages that are INTENDED that the Church considers immoral. The Church never allows the pill to be used as an abortifacient. But it does allow the use of the pill for medical reasons with the possiblity of producing an unintended miscarriage—without obliging the couple to abstain from sexual relations during that time.

You say that you don’t disagree with the Bishops - so you would have no problem with a rape victim using Plan B after the appropriate testing? Because it didn’t sound like you did - if I misinterpreted this, please let me know.

God Bless
Schrode
 
Gladly - here is one of the time’s it’s mentioned - but it looks like you’ve seen it before because I believe I saw a thread you were on where another quoted it as well -but so you can see it again:
From Fr. Serpa:
The use of the pill for medical reasons may cause an UNintended miscarriage. Women often have unintended miscarriages—sometimes without even knowing it. It is only miscarriages that are INTENDED that the Church considers immoral. The Church never allows the pill to be used as an abortifacient. But it does allow the use of the pill for medical reasons with the possiblity of producing an unintended miscarriage—without obliging the couple to abstain from sexual relations during that time.

You say that you don’t disagree with the Bishops - so you would have no problem with a rape victim using Plan B after the appropriate testing? Because it didn’t sound like you did - if I misinterpreted this, please let me know.

God Bless
Schrode
I do not disagree with the bishops.
However, I’ve known a number of women who have conceived as a result of rape.
Their example and valor in carrying those children to term awed me.
So yes, my personal preference would be “do nothing.”
The bishops say we can do something -
so we can.

A child born of rape is, for me, simply another child.
 
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