The Immaculate Heart of Mary is a heresy

[LilyM]

theotikos;5303987:

Mother Mary was immaculately conceived. She was set apart from other women for she bore the Son of God. Does anyone think how can Jesus who has no sin in him be born of a woman who sins??

Equally I could say to you all that you cannot love Mary unless she’s absolutely perfect and cannot love a sinner which is a sign of weakness. Equally we cannot love Jesus unless he’s absolutely perfect. I’m prepared to accept both committed minor venial sins. At one point I would have thought like you. I agree with you that Mary could be compared to Ark of the Covenant. The New Covenant is the body and blood of Christ instituted by Jesus at the last supper. By having Christ’s body inside her womb her womb was like the Ark of Covenant. Equally the tabernacle at Church and the faithful who receive Communion are also Arks of the covenant.

You’re prepared to accept that Jesus committed minor venial sins? You’re prepared to believe that God incarnate sinned? Set laws for mankind that He was incapable of keeping Himself? What kind of hypocritical deity do you worship? What kind of worse than hypocritical Messiah - one who tells us to be perfect, who tells us that He (for He and the Father are one) IS perfect? What diabolical kind of liar and deceiver is this false God, this false Messiah, of yours?

In what way was Jesus different to or better than us then? In what way did or could He save us from sin if He was subject in any way to it Himself? In what way was He divine and in the form of God?

What point praying to God to lead us not into temptation or to deliver us from evil if He cannot resist it Himself? Our faith is truly in vain and worse than vain if our God Himself has sinned!

You’re saying it was to no avail that He resisted the temptations of Satan in the desert - since it is entirely possible that He gave into the devil at some other stage no?

 

[mary1173]

And the infallible Magisterium, which has been doing research for 2000 years, can’t possibly be right in their teachings on the Immaculate Heart devotion. Whereas you, who can’t have been studying theology for more than five minutes (relatively speaking), is of course correct?

Developing your own theology? Arius developed his own theology. Luther developed his own theology. Both started out as faithful members of the Church, content to do as theologians should do and keep ‘their’ theology in line with the infallible teachings of the Magisterium. They could have been rivals to Augustine and Aquinas. Instead look where ‘their own theology’ led them.

And as that same Augustine said - another who probably forgot more theology than you’re likely to ever know - ‘seek not to understand so that you may believe, but believe so that you may understand’. Faith comes first, my friend, not understanding nor the far less important book-learning.

you took the words right out of my mouth. No private interpretations please!

 

[mary1173]

theotikos;5303987:

Mother Mary was immaculately conceived. She was set apart from other women for she bore the Son of God. Does anyone think how can Jesus who has no sin in him be born of a woman who sins??

Equally I could say to you all that you cannot love Mary unless she’s absolutely perfect and cannot love a sinner which is a sign of weakness. Equally we cannot love Jesus unless he’s absolutely perfect. I’m prepared to accept both committed minor venial sins. At one point I would have thought like you. I agree with you that Mary could be compared to Ark of the Covenant. The New Covenant is the body and blood of Christ instituted by Jesus at the last supper. By having Christ’s body inside her womb her womb was like the Ark of Covenant. Equally the tabernacle at Church and the faithful who receive Communion are also Arks of the covenant.

You also fail to realize budgie, that St. Anne, Mary’s mother, was also born without sin. God chooses those he wishes to be saints by allowing that their bodies be born without the stain of original sin. This means that the Holy Spirit was the one who placed the children into the wombs of the Saints, not man. To say as you have, would be denying God’s capacity to work miracles, create Saints, and prophets. Do you believe in God the Holy Spirit, is a question that needs to be answered first. I don’t understand your theology bugie.Nice point theotikos

 

[LilyM]

budgie2;5304167:

You also fail to realize budgie, that St. Anne, Mary’s mother, was also born without sin. God chooses those he wishes to be saints by allowing that their bodies be born without the stain of original sin. This means that the Holy Spirit was the one who placed the children into the wombs of the Saints, not man. To say as you have, would be denying God’s capacity to work miracles, create Saints, and prophets. Do you believe in God the Holy Spirit, is a question that needs to be answered first. I don’t understand your theology bugie.Nice point theotikos

No. It is not church teaching that St Anne or any other than Mary and Jesus were conceived or born without personal sin, let alone without original sin.

 

[mary1173]

mary1173;5304255:

No. It is not church teaching that St Anne or any other than Mary and Jesus were conceived or born without personal sin, let alone without original sin.

Please explain this to me further. I would like to know how a person who is venerated as a saint , St. Anne, Mary’s mother, was able to have Mary be born without the stain of original sin? I was taught by my mother that St. Anne, Mary’s mother, was born without the stain of original sin. How can a holy being come from someone who sins??

 

[Shin]

Mary is the mother of Jesus the Christ, and as she and He were together, their hearts beat as one. All mothers in pregnancy know this, their hearts and their little ones, beat together, their blood flows together. After birth, even then, as they lie together in each others arms, the hearts are still joined… . quicker or slower. . waking and sleeping.

Throughout their lives their hearts beat as one. What passion and grief they together bore, so that He is the King of Martyrs, and she the Queen of Martyrs.

‘Her grief was immeasurably increased when she became the Mother of this Saviour; so that at the sad sight of the many torments which were to be endured by her poor Son, she indeed suffered a long martyrdom, a martyrdom which lasted her whole life. This was signified with great exactitude to Saint Bridget in a vision which she had in Rome, in the church of Saint Mary Major, where the Blessed Virgin with Saint Simeon, and an angel bearing a very long sword, reddened with blood, appeared to her, denoting thereby the long, and bitter grief which transpierced the heart of Mary during her whole life.’

‘. . . time, which usually mitigates the sorrows of the afflicted, did not relieve Mary; nay, even it increased her sorrow; for, as Jesus, on the one hand, advanced in age, and always appeared more and more beautiful and amiable; so also, on the other hand, the time of His death always drew nearer, and grief always increased in the heart of Mary, at the thought of having to lose Him on earth. So that, in the words addressed by the angel to Saint Bridget: "As the rose grows up amongst thorns, so the Mother of God advanced in years in the midst of sufferings; and as the thorns increase with the growth of the rose, so also did the thorns of her sorrows increase in Mary, the chosen rose of the Lord, as she advanced in age; and so much the more deeply did they pierce her heart.’

‘Jeremias seems unable to find any one with whom be can compare this Mother of Sorrows, when he considers her great sufferings at the death of her Son. “To what shall I compare thee or to what shall I liken thee, O daughter of Jerusalem. . . for great as the sea is thy destruction: who shall heal thee?” Wherefore Cardinal Hugo, in a commentary on these words, says, "O Blessed Virgin, as the sea in bitterness exceeds all other bitterness, so does thy grief exceed all other grief. Hence Saint Anselm asserts, that "had not God by a special miracle preserved the life of Mary in each moment of her life, her grief was such that it would have caused her death. Saint Bernardine of Siena goes so far as to say, “that the grief of Mary was so great that, were it divided amongst all men, it would suffice to cause their immediate death.”’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

“When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, ‘Woman, behold, your son!’. Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold, your mother!’”

Jn 19:26-27

 

[mary1173]

LilyM;5304267:

Please explain this to me further. I would like to know how a person who is venerated as a saint , St. Anne, Mary’s mother, was able to have Mary be born without the stain of original sin? I was taught by my mother that St. Anne, Mary’s mother, was born without the stain of original sin. How can a holy being come from someone who sins??

Also does the church teach that St Anne was born without original sin? Or does it overlook the whole process by which St. Anne was born? Why was she a saint? Other than to give birth to the Immaculate Conception? To be conceived without sin requires that the person giving birth is without sin, no? Please explain how my mother got misinformation from her Mother Superior when she decerned being a nun in 10th grade. The nuns lied to her? She learned a lot in the nunery. I’m sure nuns won’t lie about such matters.

 

[Shin]

mary1173;5304275:

Also does the church teach that St Anne was born without original sin? Or does it overlook the whole process by which St. Anne was born? Why was she a saint? Other than to give birth to the Immaculate Conception? To be conceived without sin requires that the person giving birth is without sin, no? Please explain how my mother got misinformation from her Mother Superior when she decerned being a nun in 10th grade. The nuns lied to her? She learned a lot in the nunery. I’m sure nuns won’t lie about such matters.

I recollect that there may be a pious belief that St. Anne was sanctified either immediately after her conception (in contrast to Mary who was never in original sin for a moment) or before or shortly after her birth. This would likely be like St. John the Baptist, who was sanctified in the womb and leapt with joy.

It was not necessary for St. Anne to be born without original sin, however it is clear that she and her husband were of the greatest sanctity and holiness.

If I recall correctly they lived in a special sect that had correctly intepreted many of the Old Testament prophecies about the coming of the time of the Messiah, and lived very segregated lives not interacting with the world, lives of singular holiness resembling the monasteries of our times.

But this is not something I know much about to say, I am only speaking tentatively, I have not yet involved myself as fully as I intend to in studying what we know of the lives of the immediate ancestors of Mary and Joseph through the revelations of the saints.

This would all be pious belief of some, not anything proclaimed by a Pope – not that it truly matters or not, if it is in fact true, whether it is or not.

Someone who has read Emmerich, Agreda, etc. more fully could say more about this I believe.

 

[LilyM]

mary1173;5304275:

Also does the church teach that St Anne was born without original sin? Or does it overlook the whole process by which St. Anne was born? Why was she a saint? Other than to give birth to the Immaculate Conception? To be conceived without sin requires that the person giving birth is without sin, no? Please explain how my mother got misinformation from her Mother Superior when she decerned being a nun in 10th grade. The nuns lied to her? She learned a lot in the nunery. I’m sure nuns won’t lie about such matters.

No the Church does NOT teach that St Anne was born without original sin. She was a saint for the same reason that every other sainted woman is a saint - to give ALL of us examples of how to live a holy life and grow closer to God.

In her case this was through her raising of the Virgin Mary, as St Joachim’s (her father’s) was too. And similarly St Joseph’s was in his raising Jesus as foster father. None of these parenting roles requires that the parent be conceived without sin, but it does require that they be saintly. Mary being Mother of God was in a different league entirely from St Anne or any other saint.

Mary was conceived without original sin by a gracious and unique act of God performed upon her at the instant of her conception.*** Ineffabilis Deus***, the document promulgating the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, is abundantly clear that to be conceived without sin was a privilege uniquely reserved for the Blessed Virgin and not for others such as St Anne, in the following quotes:

“By this most significant fact, the Church made it clear indeed that the conception of Mary is to be venerated as something extraordinary, wonderful, eminently holy, and different from the conception of all other human beings”

“We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin”

So clearly the Church does NOT teach that to give birth to the Immaculate Virgin required that St Anne be without sin. Nor that anyone else (excepting always Christ, who as God incarnate was naturally without any stain of sin and didn’t need special preservation from it).

As to how your teachers got this wrong - simply put they are human. Doesn’t mean they lied at all. They are not infallible as the Holy Father is, and thus can be mistaken as all non-infallible humans can, even the most learned ones.

God bless.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I believe it is a heresy as it depicts Mary as both God and Woman, a divinity and goddess.

---

But it doesn’t so depict Mary, so your perception and belief are wrong.

 

[mary1173]

Oh, o.k., I was messed up by a nun who apparently taught my mother incorrectly. I didn’t mean to upset you. I just wanted clarification, that’s all. I need to discuss this with Fr. Serpa I suppose. He can give more accurate info that I can use. Thank you for your info though.


God Bless

 

[LilyM]

Oh, o.k., I was messed up by a nun who apparently taught my mother incorrectly. I didn’t mean to upset you. I just wanted clarification, that’s all. I need to discuss this with Fr. Serpa I suppose. He can give more accurate info that I can use. Thank you for your info though.


God Bless

You haven’t upset me at all. Nor, I think, anyone else here.

But indulge my curiosity for a minute. How is it that you consider Ineffabilis Deus, an infallible document, to be anything less than accurate, useful or helpful? Is there any reason that you need more than the plain words of the Holy Father declaring the impossibility of other saints also being conceived in the same manner as the Blessed Virgin - ie without sin?

 

[Ghoti]

You haven’t upset me at all. Nor, I think, anyone else here.

But indulge my curiosity for a minute. How is it that you consider Ineffabilis Deus, an infallible document, to be anything less than accurate, useful or helpful? Is there any reason that you need more than the plain words of the Holy Father declaring the impossibility of other saints also being conceived in the same manner as the Blessed Virgin - ie without sin?

If Anne had to be born without sin in order to bear Mary without sin, then it would stand to reason that Anne’s mother – whoever she may be – had to also be born without sin, and *her *mother, and hers, and so on, and so on, back to…umm…Eve!

Yet it is through Eve (and Adam) that original sin is transmitted in the first place…

Yeesh, I see two trains barreling toward each other on the same tracks…

AFAIK, with regard to Original Sin:

• Jesus didn’t have it, because (1) He is God, and (2) He was conceived, through the power of the Holy Spirit (also God), of a pure woman, namely:
• Mary, conceived without Original Sin, full of Grace, I believe someone stated here saved by her own Son retroactively (<-proper word here?), descended from:
• Adam and Eve, created without sin, but through whose actions sin was brought into the world.

Have I got this right?

 

[mary1173]

If Anne had to be born without sin in order to bear Mary without sin, then it would stand to reason that Anne’s mother – whoever she may be – had to also be born without sin, and *her *mother, and hers, and so on, and so on, back to…umm…Eve!

Yet it is through Eve (and Adam) that original sin is transmitted in the first place…

Yeesh, I see two trains barreling toward each other on the same tracks…

AFAIK, with regard to Original Sin:

• Jesus didn’t have it, because (1) He is God, and (2) He was conceived, through the power of the Holy Spirit (also God), of a pure woman, namely:
• Mary, conceived without Original Sin, full of Grace, I believe someone stated here saved by her own Son retroactively (<-proper word here?), descended from:
• Adam and Eve, created without sin, but through whose actions sin was brought into the world.

Have I got this right?

That’s how I was taught by my mother. And she was taught by other nuns in school and at a nunery when she was cosidering becoming a nun. I somehow don’t think that the Catholic church would allow nuns to teach contradictions on this matter. Christ’s lineage was free from sin I do believe… all the way back to Eve. You need to ask a priest to explain it. I’m not about to continue arguing the point. I also want clarification from a reliable source.

 

[Drawmack]

That’s how I was taught by my mother. And she was taught by other nuns in school and at a nunery when she was cosidering becoming a nun. I somehow don’t think that the Catholic church would allow nuns to teach contradictions on this matter. Christ’s lineage was free from sin I do believe… all the way back to Eve. You need to ask a priest to explain it. I’m not about to continue arguing the point. I also want clarification from a reliable source.

My mother was educated by Franciscan nuns through 8th grade and she claims to have been miss-taught about: the immaculate conception, limbo, papal infallibility, and the symbolism of the liturgy just to name a few. Sure, it is possible that some of these things were miss-taught. It’s also possible that she misunderstood. It’s additionally possibly that the information had been “watered down” so that a child could at least attempt to understand it and this process introduced errors. There is any number of reasons that someone could attain miss-information even from a nun.

As for not believing that the Pope would allow nuns to teach miss-information. Dude, he’s not in every theology class everywhere in the world. He does not directly over see everything said and taught in those rooms. Just being logical for a second, what makes you think he’s capable of double checking everything that is said in every religion, or theology, class in the world?

 

[mary1173]

My mother was educated by Franciscan nuns through 8th grade and she claims to have been miss-taught about: the immaculate conception, limbo, papal infallibility, and the symbolism of the liturgy just to name a few. Sure, it is possible that some of these things were miss-taught. It’s also possible that she misunderstood. It’s additionally possibly that the information had been “watered down” so that a child could at least attempt to understand it and this process introduced errors. There is any number of reasons that someone could attain miss-information even from a nun.

As for not believing that the Pope would allow nuns to teach miss-information. Dude, he’s not in every theology class everywhere in the world. He does not directly over see everything said and taught in those rooms. Just being logical for a second, what makes you think he’s capable of double checking everything that is said in every religion, or theology, class in the world?

I’m not saying the Pope oversees each class. And you are right it could have been misinterpreted by my mom or mistaught by a nun. But the Catholic Council of Bishops teaches and informs those who are decerning religious orders what is to be taught. The orders come from the Pope and the Catholic Council of Bishops. The writings and teachings of the saints and the NT and OT are accurate and I don’t think misinformation came from the nuns in the nunery to my mother. She was also in a Catholic school from K-12… She passed her religion classes with flying colors, A’s and a GPA of 4.1
You are saying that she had a watered down version…not in a nunery. Franciscan nuns follow the teachings of St. Francis. She[my mom] was being taught by Catholic priests also, not just nuns. I somehow don’t think that she misunderstood what was taught because she was Valadictorian of her graduating class because of what she understood about her religion.The nuns don’t just take anyone under their wing. You have to be well versed in your theology and religion to be accepted into a nunery.

 

[Good_Fella]

As for not believing that the Pope would allow nuns to teach miss-information. Dude, he’s not in every theology class everywhere in the world. He does not directly over see everything said and taught in those rooms. Just being logical for a second, what makes you think he’s capable of double checking everything that is said in every religion, or theology, class in the world?

I hope there aren’t any nuns out there who are teaching kids that the pope is omnipresent and omniscient.

 

[Nick_in_MB]

I’m not saying the Pope oversees each class. And you are right it could have been misinterpreted by my mom or mistaught by a nun. But the Catholic Council of Bishops teaches and informs those who are decerning religious orders what is to be taught. The orders come from the Pope and the Catholic Council of Bishops.

True. But that doesn’t stop issues from arising.
Like for me… “Tabernacle? What’s that? Oh, you mean the communion isn’t kept under the candles with the extra candles.” Yeah, that’s where the Eucharist was kept in the parish I grew up in, off to the side, in a wooden cabinet under the candles. I look at pictures of the parish online now, and there’s a tabernacle present behind the altar, where I sat when I was an altar boy. Maybe that’s not a big issue.
Then what my mom pretty much had enough with… allowing an openly gay divorced lesbian with no annulment (she was my aunt, my uncle says there was no annulment) to not only distribute and receive communion, but to do so while wearing vestments. And Father knew of her lifestyle, we were all friends outside of Church.
And as my mom believed, if the priest was allowed to do that, then the people who are his bosses must have signed off on it, so they’re okay with what’s going on.
New priest though, tabernacle is placed behind the altar now. I don’t know if my aunt is still distributing communion in vestments, but I can only assume that if some things changed, it’s possible that changed too. Of course, it’s a 12 hour drive to the parish, so I won’t find out anytime soon.

 

[Drawmack]

I’m not saying the Pope oversees each class. And you are right it could have been misinterpreted by my mom or mistaught by a nun. But the Catholic Council of Bishops teaches and informs those who are decerning religious orders what is to be taught. The orders come from the Pope and the Catholic Council of Bishops. The writings and teachings of the saints and the NT and OT are accurate and I don’t think misinformation came from the nuns in the nunery to my mother. She was also in a Catholic school from K-12… She passed her religion classes with flying colors, A’s and a GPA of 4.1
You are saying that she had a watered down version…not in a nunery. Franciscan nuns follow the teachings of St. Francis. She[my mom] was being taught by Catholic priests also, not just nuns. I somehow don’t think that she misunderstood what was taught because she was Valadictorian of her graduating class because of what she understood about her religion.The nuns don’t just take anyone under their wing. You have to be well versed in your theology and religion to be accepted into a nunery.

It is not impossible for your mother’s teachers to have misunderstood something. It is not impossible for your mother to have misunderstood something.

I didn’t say she was wrong, I said she could be wrong.

But, isn’t it possible, just possible, that a nun would say something that is her personal belief especially if it didn’t conflict with Church teaching?

Being logical, I do not think that what your mother said about Mary’s parents is official teaching. It just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Following this logic the parent of every saint would be born without original sin. Thus, their parents would need to be born without original sin, and so forth. This means that if, at any time in the future, there is a saint in my direct line of descent then I must have been born without original sin. If you continue on this path you’ll see that nearly no one would be born with original sin. This is my personal opinion, I could be wrong and if I am I would greatly appreciate being shown the Church documents which refute this. Anything short of that will simply be the responder’s opinion and I have no need or desire to follow that opinion.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

The OP’s objection to the Immaculate Heart of Mary was, at the beginning of this thead, based upon an artistic expression. I wanted to respond to the concern about the “sunrays” emanating from Mary’s Immaculate heart. According to the OP’s interpretation, this means she is being depicted as divine or a goddess. Yet, scripture tells us of a profound mystery and I believe that is what the artistic expression is trying to get across. The mystery is this: CHRIST IS IN YOU, the Hope of Glory (Col 1:27). In truth, if an artist were to depict ANY Christian, they could rightly express sunrays emanating from our hearts with this great truth in mind.

One only has to perform a rudimentary search of Catholic teaching to find that the Church does not teach that Mary is a goddess. It is simply nowhere in the teachings of the Church. Instead of jumping to a false conclusion about a dogma based on an artists drawing, I would recommend some serious study of Catholic teaching.