The Immoral The Sanctity of Human Life Act

[neophyte]

Because we are created in the image and likeness of God and by God with our own unique attributes.

Not by mad scientists who want to clone a super human soldier for the Defense Dept. or for some madly concocted half human-half animal that we see in Greek mythology…

…A cloned human being would not have unique attributes. A half man half animal would not be a human being.

What in the world are you talking about? Who said anything about human/animal hybrids? We’re talking about human beings.

No one here is arguing that cloning human beings should be legal, or that it’s not intrinsically evil. What we’re saying is that such a human being is a human being with a rational soul, with the same rights as any human being created in the natural way.

Stop hyperventilating.

 

[Pat_Payne]

What in the world are you talking about? Who said anything about human/animal hybrids? We’re talking about human beings.

No one here is arguing that cloning human beings should be legal, or that it’s not intrinsically evil. What we’re saying is that such a human being is a human being with a rational soul, with the same rights as any human being created in the natural way.

Stop hyperventilating.

Exactly.

If the OP had just said “I am wary of this bill because it does not clearly enough define human cloning as unacceptable, perhaps we should write to our representatives and let them know of our objections”, that would have been admirable.

And to all involved in the thread, I apologize for my own uncharitable responses. I let my “Pesci button” get pushed.

 

[mercytruth]

What in the world are you talking about? Who said anything about human/animal hybrids? We’re talking about human beings.

No one here is arguing that cloning human beings should be legal, or that it’s not intrinsically evil. What we’re saying is that such a human being is a human being with a rational soul, with the same rights as any human being created in the natural way.

Stop hyperventilating.

At the very least, one should be able to acknowlege that human cloning should be outlawed, along with the genetic alteration of the human being. We can disagree whether such a being is human or not in the eyes of God. That is your privilege, but we should not dictate to others that it would be human, when it is a theological, philosophical, moral and biological question into the unknown.

Secondly, providing protection of human cloned embryos gives this bill the appearance that it approves of cloning. This bill does not represent Catholic teaching in this regard.

Lastly, I am disappointed that with all the media coverage on various issues regarding reproduction and sexuality, there is practically no discussion about the ethics of cloning and of the genetic engineering of human beings. There is no discussion about Federally outlawing human cloning, and human genetic alteration. This would seem like a no-brainer to our elected officials. It seems as if that if the media, or the Church does not speak out about a particular moral issue of great consequence, then it is a non issue.

God’s peace

micah.

 

[mercytruth]

Exactly.

If the OP had just said “I am wary of this bill because it does not clearly enough define human cloning as unacceptable, perhaps we should write to our representatives and let them know of our objections”, that would have been admirable.

And to all involved in the thread, I apologize for my own uncharitable responses. I let my “Pesci button” get pushed.

Your point is well taken. I have very strong feelings against cloning and genetic alteration of humans and of God’s creation. It is an issue that does not seem to get enough coverage and I can get very animated about this subject.

God’s peace

micah.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I’m sorry mercytruth, but I’m afraid I have to agree with everybody else, and frankly I consider your ideology regarding clones rather repellent. Clones are replicated from human DNA; God is still responsible for their creation insofar as He created man at all and He is responsible for whatever theoretical rational attributes they possess, since rationality comes from God.

Of course humans shouldn’t be cloned in the first place but at least in case they ever are the bill makes sure they aren’t killed.

As for the bill itself it sounds like it would be excellent and I think it shows a lot of foresight to include the section on cloning. I give it my full support, including the cloning section.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

You are as long as you defend this bill as it is now written. Once again, there is no federal law against human cloning. If ever this bill was enacted it would effectively legalize embryonic cloning by its defense of cloned embryos.

God’s peace

micah

Actually since cloning is not technically illegal the bill would be ensuring that the rights of any theoretically created rational human clones are protected like the rest of us.

 

[mercytruth]

I’m sorry mercytruth, but I’m afraid I have to agree with everybody else, and frankly I consider your ideology regarding clones rather repellent. Clones are replicated from human DNA; God is still responsible for their creation insofar as He created man at all and He is responsible for whatever theoretical rational attributes they possess, since rationality comes from God.

Of course humans shouldn’t be cloned in the first place but at least in case they ever are the bill makes sure they aren’t killed.

As for the bill itself it sounds like it would be excellent and I think it shows a lot of foresight to include the section on cloning. I give it my full support, including the cloning section.

Actually, cloning is forbidden in Catholic teaching:

**The Catechism states that the act which brings a child into existence must be one
by which two persons give themselves to one another. (It must not be an act which) entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of dominion is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children… (No. 2377).

In other words, the child has a right to be procreated in the manner which God has in mind for it. In this aspect, parents and their child are equals before God. He made the parents, He makes the child. Both parties obey Him, both parties respect each other out of reverence for God their maker. **

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=2968&CFID=4974906&CFTOKEN=44809295

So protecting that which forbidden by the church would be authorizing it.

God’s peace

micah

 

[Bill_Martin]

Actually, cloning is forbidden in Catholic teaching:

The Catechism states that the act which brings a child into existence must be one
by which two persons give themselves to one another. (It must not be an act which) entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of dominion is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children… (No. 2377).

In other words, the child has a right to be procreated in the manner which God has in mind for it. In this aspect, parents and their child are equals before God. He made the parents, He makes the child. Both parties obey Him, both parties respect each other out of reverence for God their maker.

So protecting that which forbidden by the church would be authorizing it.

God’s peace

micah

It does not protect cloning. It protects children created by it by saying that they are human beings—not medical byproducts who can then be executed when their usefulness is up.

Again, this is no different than protecting children created by rape. It does not condone or legalize rape–it’s protects life, even if that life was born out of sin.

 

[AdamP88]

Mercytruth. I am a catholic from Ireland, where abortion is Illegal, as is experimentation on human embryos. IVF is legal fo the last few years.

However you are totally incorrect. While cloning is immoral, the child that would be a product of cloning or genetic engineering would not be able to change the circumstances of their birth.

It is the teaching of the Church that all humans are persons from the time of conception. There is no church teaching to say that these people are not people in the eyes of God.

 

[Pat_Payne]

Please, Mercytruth, I beg you to read what the other posters are actually writing. Nobody here is arguing that cloning should be legal. Nobody is claiming that cloning should be permissable. What we are saying is that it becomes very easy to dismiss that lives that would be created through cloning (when and if the process becomes viable) are still human lives, and are still ensouled by God, who as it says in Wis 11 “loves everything that exists.”

And that by arguing that they can’t be human it gets us back on that slippery slope of “well this life is valueless, if we can kill this baby, why not this one? Or this one?” And I do not feel comfortable in saying any life is valueless no matter its provenance.

 

[acarlson]

We can disagree whether such a being is human or not in the eyes of God. That is your privilege, but we should not dictate to others that it would be human, when it is a theological, philosophical, moral and biological question into the unknown.

But, isn’t this the same argument most pro-choice individuals use when Catholics claim that a human being is a human being from the moment of conception . . . just in a different paradigm?

If you want to speak of slippery slopes. . .

 

[Pat_Payne]

But, isn’t this the same argument many pro-choice people use when Catholics claim that a human being is a human being from the moment of conception, just in a different paradigm?

If you want to speak of slippery slopes. . .

:clapping::bowdown2: I’d wished I’d thought of that armor-piercing question…

 

[acarlson]

:clapping::bowdown2: I’d wished I’d thought of that armor-piercing question…

:knight2: :thankyou:

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Please, Mercytruth, I beg you to read what the other posters are actually writing. Nobody here is arguing that cloning should be legal. Nobody is claiming that cloning should be permissable. What we are saying is that it becomes very easy to dismiss that lives that would be created through cloning (when and if the process becomes viable) are still human lives, and are still ensouled by God, who as it says in Wis 11 “loves everything that exists.”

And that by arguing that they can’t be human it gets us back on that slippery slope of “well this life is valueless, if we can kill this baby, why not this one? Or this one?” And I do not feel comfortable in saying any life is valueless no matter its provenance.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Actually, cloning is forbidden in Catholic teaching:

The Catechism states that the act which brings a child into existence must be one
by which two persons give themselves to one another. (It must not be an act which) entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of dominion is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children… (No. 2377).

In other words, the child has a right to be procreated in the manner which God has in mind for it. In this aspect, parents and their child are equals before God. He made the parents, He makes the child. Both parties obey Him, both parties respect each other out of reverence for God their maker.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=2968&CFID=4974906&CFTOKEN=44809295

So protecting that which forbidden by the church would be authorizing it.

God’s peace

micah

You know, this would be an excellent point if it had anything whatsoever to do with a word I was saying.

And if my grandmother had wheels, maybe she’d be a trolley car.

This has absolutely nothing to do with my post. Nothing.

 

[Listener]

I don’t think anyone on this thread is defending the idea of a cloned human being. It’s just that we have no control over what a mad scientist might do, whether it’s illegal or not.

Cloned animals seem to have animal souls, so why wouldn’t a cloned human have a human soul? Even if a cloned human turned out to be very handicapped, wouldn’t you want to give that person the benefit of the doubt?

If I remember right, I think there is already a law that absolutely no federal money can be used for human cloning. I suppose someone could attempt it with private money. Even if a law against it is passed, there is always some mad scientist who will ignore the law.

 

[mercytruth]

You know, this would be an excellent point if it had anything whatsoever to do with a word I was saying.

And if my grandmother had wheels, maybe she’d be a trolley car.

This has absolutely nothing to do with my post. Nothing.

Evidently you and the other posters have information that a cloned human embryo is indeed a human being. Maybe God has spoken to you personally. Would any of you care to share your personal coversations with God with us regarding such certitude?

**The Pontifical Academy for Life, on July 9, 1997, declared that human cloning, if done, would not duplicate a person. The clone would duplicate body structures, but not personal identity. The Academy stated that the spiritual soul cannot be generated by the parents, cannot be produced by artificial fertilization, cannot be cloned (see The Pope Speaks, 1998, p. 28). **

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=2968&CFID=4983715&CFTOKEN=10320238

God’s peace

micah

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Evidently you and the other posters have information that a cloned human embryo is indeed a human being. Maybe God has spoken to you personally. Would any of you care to share your personal coversations with God with us regarding such certitude?

**The Pontifical Academy for Life, on July 9, 1997, declared that human cloning, if done, would not duplicate a person. The clone would duplicate body structures, but not personal identity. The Academy stated that the spiritual soul cannot be generated by the parents, cannot be produced by artificial fertilization, cannot be cloned (see The Pope Speaks, 1998, p. 28). **

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=2968&CFID=4983715&CFTOKEN=10320238

God’s peace

micah

Clearly you’re misinterpreting something here, because it also says the soul cannot be generated by the parents. By your interpretation that would mean we have no souls!

What they’re saying is that a clone would not be a duplicate person. This is 100% correct. It would be a completely new, unique individual.

As for our “revelation from God”, the Church’s teachings on ensoulment have a very scientific basis. Why do we believe embryos are ensouled? Because they are biologically human. There is basis in Church history for this. St. Thomas used to believe that fetuses were not ensouled until several months in because he didn’t believe they were biologically human. This was changed not because we discarded his philosophy but because science was able to prove that a fetus was, in fact, merely a young human.

In the same way if a clone is biologically human then we must conclude that it has a soul. It doesn’t take a direct message from God for us to figure it out.

Glad you’ve finally decided to actually address my comment, though.

 

[Pat_Payne]

OK, this has gone far enough. My forehead has a permanent impression of the brick wall it’s been bashing against. (and yes, the switch is back at “Pesci.” Thanks for asking.)

You read the wrong portion of that or you’re reading selectively to read what you want to read. From your own link:

“We may assume, I believe, that God would create souls for clones if technicians present viable biological materials. God does not usually stop evil by intervening visibly. He asks us to desist from doing evil in the first place. Dr. Luc Gormally, Director of the Linacre Centre, London, observes that when human biological materials are all in place, they are in a condition ready to receive a rational soul (Dolentium Hominum 28 (1995) pp. 27-31).”

Not to mention, all that your quote says is that HUMANS cannot create the soul. It does not speak about whether or not God would coopoerate in ensouling a child conceived through an illicit process.

Also, look – I can cite sources too!

catholic.com/quickquestions/would-a-human-clone-have-a-soul
ewtn.com/expert/answers/frozen_embryos_and_clones.htm

From HIS HOLINESS Bl. John Paul II:

The Holy See looks upon the distinction between “reproductive” and so-called “therapeutic” (or “experimental”) cloning to be unacceptable. This distinction masks the reality of the creation of a human being for the purpose of destroying him or her to produce embryonic stem cell lines or to conduct other experimentation. Human embryonic cloning must be prohibited in all cases regardless of the aims that are pursued. The Holy See supports research on stem cells of post-natal origin since this approach - as has been demonstrated by the most recent scientific studies - is a sound, promising, and ethical way to achieve tissue transplantation and cell therapy that could benefit humanity…

Cloning a human embryo, while intentionally planning its demise, would institutionalize the deliberate, systemic destruction of nascent human life in the name of unknown “good” of potential therapy or scientific discovery… Since embryonic cloning generates a new human life geared not for a future of human flourishing but for a future destined to servitude and certain destruction, it is a process that cannot be justified on the grounds that it may be able to assist other human beings.

Intervention by the Holy See Delegation to the United Nations, at the Special Committee of the 57th General Assembly on Human Embryonic Cloning (2002)

(source: old.usccb.org/prolife/tdocs/cloning.shtml)

 

[Nate13]

My God, don’t you realize that a cloned ‘human’ or a genetically modified ‘human’ is not a human being? It is like the days of Noah, when the fallen angels had relations with female humans and created giants.

Our Congressmen should be spend time enacting a bi-partisan bill that would federally outlaw human cloning and the genetic alteration of the human species. Already in England this year scientists have created human embryos in the lab.

Now is the time to urge our Congress and Senate to outlaw human cloning and human genetic engineering before it is too late. Waiting until disaster and God’s judgment strikes is foolish.

God’s peace

micah

They should outlaw human cloning as you said if they haven’t already, but you are off the rails if you think a cloned human would not have a soul and not be “really human”. Whether someone is a human being or not has nothing to do with how the sperm and egg met. If that is what you believe do you then also believe that the babies that are products of rape or incest are not human?