The Immoral The Sanctity of Human Life Act

[mini_me640]

OP,

Even if the part of this act that bothers you was taken out, it wouldn’t ban human cloning,it would just mean that if, God forbid, a human clone was made, it could be killed as if it were non-human. What you should be advocating for is a ban on human cloning. Taking the section of this act out that you refer to will do nothing to stop human cloning; a ban would.

 

[mercytruth]

They should outlaw human cloning as you said if they haven’t already, but you are off the rails if you think a cloned human would not have a soul and not be “really human”. Whether someone is a human being or not has nothing to do with how the sperm and egg met. If that is what you believe do you then also believe that the babies that are products of rape or incest are not human?

Cloning and genetic engineering of the human being are light years away from the biological conception of babies. Of course, such babies would be human, at which point such babies receive a soul from our Creator God, I am not sure.

As far as cloned embryos:
**The Pontifical Academy for Life, on July 9, 1997, declared that human cloning, if done, would not duplicate a person. The clone would duplicate body structures, but not personal identity. The Academy stated that the spiritual soul cannot be generated by the parents, cannot be produced by artificial fertilization, cannot be cloned (see The Pope Speaks, 1998, p. 28). **

catholicculture.org/cultu…TOKEN=10320238

Let’s keep our minds a bit flexible when it comes to human embryos that are cloned or genetically altered in the labs of science, and whether our Creator would validate such diabolical creations by endowing such creatures with a human soul.

Anyone who is so confident that such unborn creatures would have a human soul, and then dictate to others their own views by outlawing the abortion of such cloned embryos are being very presumptuous and unyielding.

Now, I think it is important to have discussions on these issues because they are very current and need to be addressed in a manner that is moral, rational, and fair to all.

Thank you for your participation in this discussion and I respect your viewpoints which may or not be true regarding ensoulment of cloned human embryos.

God’s peace

micah

 

[mercytruth]

OK, this has gone far enough. My forehead has a permanent impression of the brick wall it’s been bashing against. (and yes, the switch is back at “Pesci.” Thanks for asking.)

You read the wrong portion of that or you’re reading selectively to read what you want to read. From your own link:

“We may assume, I believe, that God would create souls for clones if technicians present viable biological materials. God does not usually stop evil by intervening visibly. He asks us to desist from doing evil in the first place. Dr. Luc Gormally, Director of the Linacre Centre, London, observes that when human biological materials are all in place, they are in a condition ready to receive a rational soul (Dolentium Hominum 28 (1995) pp. 27-31).”

Not to mention, all that your quote says is that HUMANS cannot create the soul. It does not speak about whether or not God would coopoerate in ensouling a child conceived through an illicit process.

Also, look – I can cite sources too!

catholic.com/quickquestions/would-a-human-clone-have-a-soul
ewtn.com/expert/answers/frozen_embryos_and_clones.htm

From HIS HOLINESS Bl. John Paul II:

The Holy See looks upon the distinction between “reproductive” and so-called “therapeutic” (or “experimental”) cloning to be unacceptable. This distinction masks the reality of the creation of a human being for the purpose of destroying him or her to produce embryonic stem cell lines or to conduct other experimentation. Human embryonic cloning must be prohibited in all cases regardless of the aims that are pursued. The Holy See supports research on stem cells of post-natal origin since this approach - as has been demonstrated by the most recent scientific studies - is a sound, promising, and ethical way to achieve tissue transplantation and cell therapy that could benefit humanity…

Cloning a human embryo, while intentionally planning its demise, would institutionalize the deliberate, systemic destruction of nascent human life in the name of unknown “good” of potential therapy or scientific discovery… Since embryonic cloning generates a new human life geared not for a future of human flourishing but for a future destined to servitude and certain destruction, it is a process that cannot be justified on the grounds that it may be able to assist other human beings.

Intervention by the Holy See Delegation to the United Nations, at the Special Committee of the 57th General Assembly on Human Embryonic Cloning (2002)

(source: old.usccb.org/prolife/tdocs/cloning.shtml)

Pat, I want to commend you for reading the article. Actually, I posted what you quoted as post #10 to the thread regarding therapeutic cloning of embryos prior.

It is important to separate what the Pope said about human embryos from the comments of the writer of this article if the hypothetical of human embryonic cloning should take place. The author says, ‘we may assume, I believe’ (this is a probable but not absolute statement coming from one individual).

Yes, the author of the other article does state that if the embryonic cloning of humans were to happen it would generate human life. Thus, one would have to ask the author if he meant to say that if it would generate human life before being ‘born’ or after being born.

The fact is, cloned embryos do not have a successful birth rate, and even when they do, there are complications.

As far as the quotation from Dr. Gormally, he is not a theologian, like the Pope.

So, I thank you for doing your homework. This is the type of discussion that I wish our legislators and citizens would be involved, as this a most important isssue of our time.

I respect your viewpoints, and I hope you can respect the viewpoint of those who doubt whether unborn cloned human embryos or genetically modified human embryos have a human soul. Frankly, this is not a black and white issue as some would believe.

God’s peace

micah

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Pat, I want to commend you for reading the article. Actually, I posted what you quoted as post #10 to the thread regarding therapeutic cloning of embryos prior.

It is important to separate what the Pope said about human embryos from the comments of the writer of this article if the hypothetical of human embryonic cloning should take place. The author says, ‘we may assume, I believe’ (this is a probable but not absolute statement coming from one individual).

Yes, the author of the other article does state that if the embryonic cloning of humans were to happen it would generate human life. Thus, one would have to ask the author if he meant to say that if it would generate human life before being ‘born’ or after being born.

The fact is, cloned embryos do not have a successful birth rate, and even when they do, there are complications.

As far as the quotation from Dr. Gormally, he is not a theologian, like the Pope.

So, I thank you for doing your homework. This is the type of discussion that I wish our legislators and citizens would be involved, as this a most important isssue of our time.

I respect your viewpoints, and I hope you can respect the viewpoint of those who doubt whether unborn cloned human embryos or genetically modified human embryos have a human soul. Frankly, this is not a black and white issue as some would believe.

God’s peace

micah

I’m sorry, but this IS a black and white issue from a philosophical perspective.

Thousands of zygotes die each day from miscarriages, but they’re human.

I’m sorry, but sound Thomistic metaphysics force me to conclude that clones are human.

 

[LilyM]

As I have already stated several times, I believe that we are indeed created in the image and likeness of God with unique attributes.

A cloned human being would not have unique attributes. A half man half animal would not be a human being. If we allow protection of such ‘creatures’ we are opening a pandora’s box of unimaginable proportions. Satan desires to be like God in every way, he desires to create beings that are in conflict with God’s creation. Just as it was in the days of Noah when there were giants in the earth.

All of this can be avoided. There is nothing to stop Congress from passing a bi-partisan Federal bill that would outlaw human cloning and the genetic alteration of human beings.

Please contact your congressmen fo enact such a bill. This year, England cloned human embryos in the lab. Time is running out.

God’s peace

micah

A cloned human being, as far as I am aware, would have no fewer unique attributes than your identical twin, who like a clone would share your DNA. If identical twins are distinct people, so can clones be.

 

[LilyM]

Cloning and genetic engineering of the human being are light years away from the biological conception of babies. Of course, such babies would be human, at which point such babies receive a soul from our Creator God, I am not sure.

As far as cloned embryos:
The Pontifical Academy for Life, on July 9, 1997, declared that human cloning, if done, would not duplicate a person. The clone would duplicate body structures, but not personal identity. The Academy stated that the spiritual soul cannot be generated by the parents, cannot be produced by artificial fertilization, cannot be cloned (see The Pope Speaks, 1998, p. 28).

catholicculture.org/cultu…TOKEN=10320238

Let’s keep our minds a bit flexible when it comes to human embryos that are cloned or genetically altered in the labs of science, and whether our Creator would validate such diabolical creations by endowing such creatures with a human soul.

Anyone who is so confident that such unborn creatures would have a human soul, and then dictate to others their own views by outlawing the abortion of such cloned embryos are being very presumptuous and unyielding.

Now, I think it is important to have discussions on these issues because they are very current and need to be addressed in a manner that is moral, rational, and fair to all.

Thank you for your participation in this discussion and I respect your viewpoints which may or not be true regarding ensoulment of cloned human embryos.

God’s peace

micah

God gave the devil himself a soul. Lots of people are conceived in ways that are sinful, even seriously so, and are this every bit as much ‘diabolical creations’ as your clone. Yet they are not denied souls for reason of the circumstances surrounding their coming to be.

God originally gave the first human soul, remember, to a lump of clay. At least we should err on the side of caution and say that He MAY choose to ensoul a clone, and treat it accordingly.

 

[Nate13]

Cloning and genetic engineering of the human being are light years away from the biological conception of babies. Of course, such babies would be human, at which point such babies receive a soul from our Creator God, I am not sure.

As far as cloned embryos:
The Pontifical Academy for Life, on July 9, 1997, declared that human cloning, if done, would not duplicate a person. The clone would duplicate body structures, but not personal identity. The Academy stated that the spiritual soul cannot be generated by the parents, cannot be produced by artificial fertilization, cannot be cloned (see The Pope Speaks, 1998, p. 28).

catholicculture.org/cultu…TOKEN=10320238

Let’s keep our minds a bit flexible when it comes to human embryos that are cloned or genetically altered in the labs of science, and whether our Creator would validate such diabolical creations by endowing such creatures with a human soul.

Anyone who is so confident that such unborn creatures would have a human soul, and then dictate to others their own views by outlawing the abortion of such cloned embryos are being very presumptuous and unyielding.

Now, I think it is important to have discussions on these issues because they are very current and need to be addressed in a manner that is moral, rational, and fair to all.

Thank you for your participation in this discussion and I respect your viewpoints which may or not be true regarding ensoulment of cloned human embryos.

God’s peace

micah

Idk he gave Hitler a soul, so he doesn’t seem to discriminate. That is kind of part of the whole free will thing… Also, the common understanding of the soul is that its what gives a person or any living thing life. It is what animates a living creature. The difference between the soul of a cat and the soul of a human though is that a human soul is eternal. If you recognize that a clone is human and he/she is alive, then you should assume he/she has an eternal soul, period.

 

[mercytruth]

Idk he gave Hitler a soul, so he doesn’t seem to discriminate. That is kind of part of the whole free will thing… Also, the common understanding of the soul is that its what gives a person or any living thing life. It is what animates a living creature. The difference between the soul of a cat and the soul of a human though is that a human soul is eternal. If you recognize that a clone is human and he/she is alive, then you should assume he/she has an eternal soul, period.

We can not assume that God our Creator would validate a human life form that is created by science. A validation in which God himself would ensoul that life form with a human soul. God ‘breathed into his nostrils and he became a living soul’.

We are created in the image and likeness of God by God and not by science. Each one of us is unique and has unique finger prints. This can not be said for human clones.

I see human cloning and genetic engineering by science as an attempt by Satan to disrupt the life forms which God has created. Life forms which God said were ‘good’. Satan would like nothing more than to create mutant and distorted life forms of what our Good Creator has created. He hates God’s creation, he desires to mock God, and destroy what God has created. These are my beliefs, and you are entitiled to your own.

God’s peace once again

micah

 

[Marc_Anthony]

We can not assume that God our Creator would validate a human life form that is created by science. A validation in which God himself would ensoul that life form with a human soul. God ‘breathed into his nostrils and he became a living soul’.

We are created in the image and likeness of God by God and not by science. Each one of us is unique and has unique finger prints. This can not be said for human clones.

I see human cloning and genetic engineering by science as an attempt by Satan to disrupt the life forms which God has created. Life forms which God said were ‘good’. Satan would like nothing more than to create mutant and distorted life forms of what our Good Creator has created. He hates God’s creation, he desires to mock God, and destroy what God has created. These are my beliefs, and you are entitiled to your own.

God’s peace once again

micah

Perhaps, but if there are ever human clones in society you can bet that if you’re still calling them creations of Satan then nobody here is going to “live and let live”.

 

[LilyM]

We can not assume that God our Creator would validate a human life form that is created by science. A validation in which God himself would ensoul that life form with a human soul. God ‘breathed into his nostrils and he became a living soul’.

We are created in the image and likeness of God by God and not by science. Each one of us is unique and has unique finger prints. This can not be said for human clones.

I see human cloning and genetic engineering by science as an attempt by Satan to disrupt the life forms which God has created. Life forms which God said were ‘good’. Satan would like nothing more than to create mutant and distorted life forms of what our Good Creator has created. He hates God’s creation, he desires to mock God, and destroy what God has created. These are my beliefs, and you are entitiled to your own.

God’s peace once again

micah

And we can even less assume that He would never choose to bring good out of evil, as He does out of the evils of rape and incest and the greater evil of His own crucifixion - blessing with the gift of life, physical in the former cases, eternal in the latter.

 

[vsedriver]

We can not assume that God our Creator would validate a human life form that is created by science. A validation in which God himself would ensoul that life form with a human soul. God ‘breathed into his nostrils and he became a living soul’.

science can’t create human life without the God created human life to begin with. So essentially cloning is just another means of fertilizing a human egg. It’s still human, made by God.

We are created in the image and likeness of God by God and not by science. Each one of us is unique and has unique finger prints. This can not be said for human clones.

You can’t create a clone without God made human material. And you can’t prove that clones will have exactly the same fingerprints. Clones have the same DNA which is no different than the DNA of identical twins, yet even identical twins don’t have the same fingerprints.

I see human cloning and genetic engineering by science as an attempt by Satan to disrupt the life forms which God has created.

I’ll agree that cloning is evil. All the more reason to have a law to protect the humanity that may be produced by cloning. It prevents the production of second class people, aka slaves.

 

[mercytruth]

Perhaps, but if there are ever human clones in society you can bet that if you’re still calling them creations of Satan then nobody here is going to “live and let live”.

You have a very good point. However, all of us according to scripture were servants of darkness, under the spiritual bondage of Satan until our Lord Jesus Christ delivered us from darkness, sin and death.

Strictly conjecture, but either the human clones would not come to term and be born, or if they were born they would die soon thereafter. Or, they would have an animal soul. Or, they would live to be born, and indeed have a human soul.

I am wondering if the ‘giants’ had human souls since many of the early church fathers wrote that they were the creation of fallen angels and the daughters of men.

God’s peace

micah

 

[mercytruth]

And we can even less assume that He would never choose to bring good out of evil, as He does out of the evils of rape and incest and the greater evil of His own crucifixion - blessing with the gift of life, physical in the former cases, eternal in the latter.

Of course God can bring good out of evil…out of incest and rape. In fact, the distant ancestry of Jesus Christ is from such.

The fact remains, that many of the early church fathers taught that giants were created by fallen angels in their relations with the daughters of men. These giants were destroyed by the Israelites, without being redeemed.

Does that mean that God could not redeem cloned creations of scientists inspired by Satan? If they have a human soul, God indeed could. The question is, would such embryos be viable and be brought to birth? Would they have an animal soul instead of a human soul? I think there are too many unanswered questions for anyone to think they have an absolute answer.

And thank you for reminding us of the passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the gift of eternal life that proceeds once the gift of physical life is granted to us.

God’s peace

micah

 

[LilyM]

Of course God can bring good out of evil…out of incest and rape. In fact, the distant ancestry of Jesus Christ is from such.

The fact remains, that many of the early church fathers taught that giants were created by fallen angels in their relations with the daughters of men. These giants were destroyed by the Israelites, without being redeemed.

Does that mean that God could not redeem cloned creations of scientists inspired by Satan? If they have a human soul, God indeed could. The question is, would such embryos be viable and be brought to birth? Would they have an animal soul instead of a human soul? I think there are too many unanswered questions for anyone to think they have an absolute answer.

And thank you for reminding us of the passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the gift of eternal life that proceeds once the gift of physical life is granted to us.

God’s peace

micah

I for one don’t pretend that we have an absolute answer - although we will need to find the answer in a hurry, as we cannot be too far away from human cloning being a reality.

It is you as much as anyone who seemed to be absolutely convinced that there was no possible way clones could have a soul.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

The fact remains, that many of the early church fathers taught that giants were created by fallen angels in their relations with the daughters of men. These giants were destroyed by the Israelites, without being redeemed.

Even in this example (and this is one of several possible interpretations and not my favorite) I think that it’s far more likely the beings were not redeemed because they didn’t repent.

Anyway, I don’t like this interpretation and think that it’s flawed from a metaphysical standpoint as well. I think the nephilim were probably just a particular race of human beings who didn’t repent.

 

[Bill_Martin]

I for one don’t pretend that we have an absolute answer - although we will need to find the answer in a hurry, as we cannot be too far away from human cloning being a reality.

It is you as much as anyone who seemed to be absolutely convinced that there was no possible way clones could have a soul.

I agree with this and think it also applies to abortion.

The people who say “We can’t really know if a fetus is a human being” have no grounds to support abortion. As with clones, shouldn’t we absolutely never kill them if we aren’t 100% sure they are NOT human beings? If I’m out hunting, I can’t shoot into a bush just because I heard a noise and think it’s “probably” not a human being. I have to be absolutely sure before I possibly end someone’s life. You can’t use deadly force until you know, for a fact, that no innocent human life will be killed.

If anything, simply not being sure if cloned humans are human beings is just another reason to protect them.

 

[Contarini]

Since there is no Federal law against the cloning of human embryos or the genetic modification of human embryos, this bill if introduced as an amendment to the US Constitution would in effect legalize the cloning of human embryos.

No, it wouldn’t, anymore than a law stating that the offspring of rape are still human persons would legalize rape.

Edwin

 

[mercytruth]

No, it wouldn’t, anymore than a law stating that the offspring of rape are still human persons would legalize rape.

Edwin

Touche, Edwin. Your logic is impeccable. Thank you.

Well, this is not the first time, and it probably will not be the last time that I have assumed something incorrectly. It is humbling, but good to be humbled by someone like yourself.

However, as I see it, this law would give personhood status to cloned human embryos, or to the equivalence thereof. That being said, I am not aware of a consensus thelogical or philosophical certitude for assuming this.

So, if these Republican congressmen have the certitude that these embryonic life forms would have personhood status, then it would easier to ban human cloning and human genetic modification than convince the general public that they are protecting their own perceived ‘personhood’ status of such embryonic life forms.

God’s peace

micah

 

[Contarini]

Touche, Edwin. Your logic is impeccable. Thank you.

Actually, I now see that other posters made the point before me–my post was unnecessary.

However, as I see it, this law would give personhood status to cloned human embryos, or to the equivalence thereof. That being said, I am not aware of a consensus thelogical or philosophical certitude for assuming this.

So, if these Republican congressmen have the certitude that these embryonic life forms would have personhood status, then it would easier to ban human cloning and human genetic modification than convince the general public that they are protecting their own perceived ‘personhood’ status of such embryonic life forms.

I think it’s a difficult issue to be sure. I don’t want to trivialize the issue you’re raising–but I don’t see how it could be called any other way. It’s not like the issue of hypothetical robot personhood, because in that case you would have a machine simulating human behavior. I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that there might be “artificial” persons (i.e., robotic creations that behaved in such a way that we had to recognize that God had given them souls).

The only way I think one could make a case that cloned people weren’t people would be if one consistently noticed a lack of certain human traits in them–if it turned out that none of them ever wrote poetry or fell in love or something of that sort. But that is a very dangerous road to go down, because people have a track record of “observing” inferior qualities in other humans against whom they are prejudiced. . . .

Edwin

 

[mercytruth]

No, it wouldn’t, anymore than a law stating that the offspring of rape are still human persons would legalize rape.

Edwin

There is a false analogy here. Rape is illegal. Human cloning is not illegal in the U.S.

For your analogy to be true, human cloning would have to become illegal.

We can not legalize the illegal by this amendment, but we could justify the legality of that which has not been declared illegal. Could we not?

God’s peace

micah