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tabycat
Guest
Identical twins are ‘naturel’ clones. Hmmm? Maybe they are not quite ‘human’ and should not have any rights mercytruth? Just asking! 
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Identical twins are ‘naturel’ clones. Hmmm? Maybe they are not quite ‘human’ and should not have any rights mercytruth? Just asking!
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mercytruth
Guest
Identical twins are biologically created by the joint cooperation of natural parents and by God. Cloned embryos or genetically modified embryos are created in the lab by scientists and implanted in the womb by scientists. They are the creation of science and not the creation of God.
Satan counterfeits and deceives, he desires to be like God. He desires to create life forms that are contrary to the life forms which God has created. Just as the fallen angels produced the giants in the days of Noah. This is a rebellion of Satan, and I personally do not believe that God would validate such ‘creations’ of rebellion by giving them a human soul.
Yet I respect your beliefs in this matter.
God’s peace to you
micah
So what about IVF, sperm donation and other artificial fertility treatments. Are the human results of these things not ensouled?
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mercytruth
Guest
I would think so. I do have qualms about these procedures being used by couples, though I would not morally judge them. I do think it is morally wrong for a gay woman to used donated sperm to conceive a child, as well as for any individual to use these procedures to create a more intelligent or beautiful child.
These methods to not follow God’s natural order of human reproduction, and for this reason I personally do not approve of them. The reproductive result would still be a unique human being who has thier own unique finger prints which would indicate an origin of Divine Creation, just as there are no two snowflakes that are exactly alike.
The science of human cloning is even further removed from God’s natural order of reproduction. Now we are introducing not a unique human DNA, but a duplicate or genetically modified human DNA that are created in the labs of science and by science.
These creations by science do not extol the wonders of God the Originator, but science the duplicator, or even worse, science the mutator of God’s creation.
When we grant science the authority to over rule the sovereignty of God’s natural order over all of His creation, we are descending down the slope of moral relativity of which there
does not seem to be any end. Eventually, we denigrate the sacredness our Creator, and the sacredness of His creation. When science becomes our god, we come its slaves.
Thank you for your good question
God’s peace be with you
micah
IVF and other artificial methods of reproduction are, as you say, in opposition to God’s natural order.
However there is no basis for your assertion that a Human Person who is conceived through Cloning has no soul while another Human Person who has been conceived through another artificial means has a soul.
It is simply your own personal opinion, as I believe you stated.
The Catholic Church is constantly at pains to emphasise the value of human life. This is why it has spoken out about contraception, abortion, IVF, human embryonic research, cloning…the list goes on.
There is NO church teaching to back up your assertion because the church understands that God values every human life…No matter how it came into existence.
A child cannot help the circumstances of it’s conception.
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mercytruth
Guest
Yes, the church values all human life from conception onward. However, human personhood is determined when human life is given a spirtual soul by God. I do not know if anyone can say when human life is given a human soul.
Secondly, human DNA that is manipulated unnaturally, or modified by science, and then fertilized does not seem to be the creation of God, but the creation of man.
So it is my belief that it is not uniquely a creation of God, but a creation of man, and does not fit the definition of human life as created by God.
You are entitled to your belief, and I hope you would respect mine as there is no theological consensus regarding embryonic human clones or genetically altered embryos as to whether such embryotic life would ever be viable in the womb as to be ensouled with a human soul by God.
God’s peace be with you
micah
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LilyM
Guest
No I don’t respect your opinion - because it treats something that may well be a human being and worthy of respect as such like nothing more than disposable piece of trash. Which is little better than what slave traders or abortionists do.
It’s far more foolish - and more wicked - to assume in default of evidence that something can’t possibly be human (which is what you are doing) than to at least be honest and humble enough to say that it is equally likely to be human as not.
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mercytruth
Guest
That is fine. But I respect the sacredness of our Creator. If a human clone or genetically modified embryo is created in the lab by some immoral scientist, that creation is not a creation of God, but a creation of Satan.
If that creation was to become a chimera for instance, by your reasoning, God would be subservient to the diabolic creations of Satan and be obliged to grant such creation a human soul. I do not believe that God would honor something that is a creation of evil, to be endowed with God’s own image and likeness, which is a human soul. This would be a mockery to our good and holy God.
If anything, God might allow such a creation by evil to be possessed by a demonic spirit or with an animal soul.
I uphold the sacredness of our Creator over the diabolic works of man inspired by Satan. God is not beholden to cooperate with such evil.
Now, God’s peace be with you
micah
Firstly, you say a spiritual soul is given by God. Unless you claim to be God you cannot claim to know whether He decides to refuse a soul to some human beings.
Also, you again state that this is just your belief about personhood. The Church recognises a human person as such from the moment of conception. This is why these artificial methods are banned.
Because they result in the abuse and destruction of human persons with an eternal soul.
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
What is the reasoning behind this?
To me the answers really have just gotten zanier and zanier.
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mercytruth
Guest
Now if I am misunderstanding church teaching on this subject, then I am willing to stand corrected. I thought that the Catholic church taught that human life began at conception.
I was assuming that human life is not necessarily equated with human personhood. Personhood I thought, comes with the endowment of a spiritual soul from God.
Because human life begins at conception, the Church teaches that human life should be protected from the moment of conception. If personhood, or ensoulment begins at the moment of conception, this is a Catholic teaching I was not aware of.
God’s peace to you.
micah.
The Church teaches that a human person, a unique eternal soul and a new life, is formed at conception.
This is the reason why the Church so staunchly defends the right to life of ALL unborn children.
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mercytruth
Guest
How do I explain myself? God gives every human being a free will to choose good or evil. For the most part, God does not interfere with the choices that we make. The scriptures say that each human being is either a servant of darkness, or a servant of light, there is no middle ground.
What is the reasoning behind this?
Let’s talk about science. All of science can either be according to the will of God and is therefore is good, or it can be contrary to the will of God and therefore is evil. I think there is a perception that science is neutral. I believe that is a wrong perception.
So now if a scientist decides to genetically modify the DNA of human beings of which God originally created us, I am assuming this is a violation of God’s sacred sovereignty over His creation. I am assuming this would be contrary to the will of God, and therefore would be evil.
Secondly, I am assuming that the fertilization of the genetically modified DNA of the egg and/or human sperm is not automatically ensouled just because it is alive. Both the genetically modified, or cloned egg and sperm were alive prior, and the combining of them can not be presumed to represent ‘ensoulment’.
These are my reasonings, and my convictions. I am not asking anyone else to accept them.
with that, I bid you God’s peace
micah.
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mercytruth
Guest
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mercytruth
Guest
Thank you for this reference. This reference does not state that the fertilized egg receives a soul at this time. So I would have to respectfully disagree with the Catholic Church on this definition of person. I will agree that the fertilized egg is uniquely human life and should be protected from abortion. The Catholic church does not categorically teach that a soul is given at conception.
Can you give me that reference, if there is any?
So one can not assume that a cloned embryo, or newly formed natural embryo has a soul. Without a spiritual soul, that embryo is incomplete in the image and likeness of God.
All is conjecture at this point.
with God’s peace
micah
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LilyM
Guest
But Satan cannot create. Not a single atom, let alone a living being, can be brought into being by Satan out of nothing. So to call anything a ‘creation of Satan’ is to accord him far more power and honour than he actually possesses.
True, He can twist to evil what God has created, but even so all creation comes of God. That is why we hold sacred the lives even of babies born of rape, of incest, of IVF. The very fact that they were created out of nothing is of God, despite the evil that was committed in the course of their coming to be.
And the fact that God brings good out of Satan’s attempts at evil, for example by ensoulling a clone, shows His dominance, not His subservience. He is no more subservient to the devil in ensoulling a clone than He was subservient to the devil in submitting to Satan’s plans to do Him to death. On the contrary, His seeming subservience at that moment enabled Him to achieve His greatest triumph over the evil one.
Give Him some credit, man!
You state that you are Catholic. However you disagree with a vital issue of Church Teaching. The issue of personhood. This is an issue on which both science and the Holy Catholic Church agree.
Life begins at Conception. This means personhood. What more reference do you want other than the Catechism. The documents of our church’s teaching?
If you do not accept that then you can justify abortion, contraception and anything else.
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mercytruth
Guest
True, Satan has not the power nor the authority to create anything out of nothing, but through his servants he can manipulate and distort the basic elements of the original forms of life that God created and which God called ‘good’. So in this sense, Satan through his servants is ‘making’ different and distorted forms of the original good forms of life which God created.
This is in a wholly different category, then when a servant of darkness rapes a woman, and a child is conceived. No original life forms of God’s creation were made different, or distorted by this evil act of rape.
God’s peace to you
micah
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