The Immoral The Sanctity of Human Life Act

[AdamP88]

Nothing you are saying has any basis in church teaching and is, in fact, contrary to teaching on this matter.

What you are advocating is that artificially created human persons are lesser humans…and you are doing this based on nothing but personal opinion.

You are not the magisterium. You have no teaching authority. And what you are saying is simply false.

 

[LilyM]

True, Satan has not the power nor the authority to create anything out of nothing, but through his servants he can manipulate and distort the basic elements of the original forms of life that God created and which God called ‘good’. So in this sense, Satan through his servants is ‘making’ different and distorted forms of the original good forms of life which God created.

This is in a wholly different category, then when a servant of darkness rapes a woman, and a child is conceived. No original life forms of God’s creation were made different, or distorted by this evil act of rape.

God’s peace to you

micah

Is the rapist, or the perpetrator of incest, not an original life form of God’s creation? Of course they are. And are they not made different and distorted by this act of rape? Of course - for all were created to be good and without sin.

You’re probably going to say ‘but the child so conceived did not sin, and so is not distorted’. You’re right. Neither did the clone sin, so neither, it stands to reason, is it automatically distorted.

 

[AdamP88]

As I said before…with this line of reasoning. You could justify experimentation on embryos based on the logic that they were not human to begin with.

 

[mercytruth]

You state that you are Catholic. However you disagree with a vital issue of Church Teaching. The issue of personhood. This is an issue on which both science and the Holy Catholic Church agree.

Life begins at Conception. This means personhood. What more reference do you want other than the Catechism. The documents of our church’s teaching?

If you do not accept that then you can justify abortion, contraception and anything else.

Wrong assumptions. Ensoulment is what makes human life complete in the image and likeness of God. “God breathed into his nostrils and he (Adam) became a living soul”

Without a soul we are not viable human beings outside the womb. When the soul departs we die. The youngest baby to be born and remain alive is around 21 weeks. From this we can assume, that at least from the 21st week of gestation, a child is viable outside the womb, and alive with a human soul.

Natural human life is sacred even without ensoulment because the conception occurred natually through the cooperation of the parents with God ordaining the conception and also keeping the fertilized egg alive to become an embryo in the mother’s womb. (not all do). This human life from conception is therefore sacred and needs to be protected.

God’s peace with you

micah

 

[LilyM]

As I said before…with this line of reasoning. You could justify experimentation on embryos based on the logic that they were not human to begin with.

Or on clones!

 

[mercytruth]

As I said before…with this line of reasoning. You could justify experimentation on embryos based on the logic that they were not human to begin with.

Not I. All of life is sacred because it is created by God. Where we have gone wrong, is to allow science to genetically modify and clone the sacred creation of God. This is an evil that greatly disturbs me.

God’s peace to you always

micah

 

[AdamP88]

I have stated The position of the Church on this. I am not going to do any more.
This is all clearly presented in the catechism.

The Church is quite clear in it’s assertion that all Human life, beginning from conception is unique and worthy of treatment as a person.

Clone or not!

 

[LilyM]

Not I. All of life is sacred because it is created by God. Where we have gone wrong, is to allow science to genetically modify and clone the sacred creation of God. This is an evil that greatly disturbs me.

God’s peace to you always

micah

Of course it’s wrong - but genetic modification of plants does not stop the things created from being plants. Nor does genetic modification of animals stop them being animals.

You’d have an argument in a case where the DNA of said plant or animal was sufficiently changed as to render it really no longer like a plant or animal, but we haven’t reached that point. And cloning, of course, would not render the DNA of the clone anything but human.

 

[mercytruth]

I have stated The position of the Church on this. I am not going to do any more.
This is all clearly presented in the catechism.

The Church is quite clear in it’s assertion that all Human life, beginning from conception is unique and worthy of treatment as a person.

Clone or not!

I respect your convictions as you are embracing the teachings of the Catholic church. You know where I stand. Human life that is conceived through the original forms of God’s creation are unique and need to be protected because they are the sacred creation of God.

Such human life becomes the complete image and likness of God when it is given a human soul by God, and at which point there is no consensus by theologians.

So with that, I respect your convictions, and I am not asking the same from you.

My God will convince me otherwise, if I have distorted his sacred word, or the traditions of the church in this matter.

farewell in God’s peace

micah

 

[AdamP88]

I respect your convictions as you are embracing the teachings of the Catholic church. You know where I stand. Human life that is conceived through the original forms of God’s creation are unique and need to be protected because they are the sacred creation of God.

Such human life becomes the complete image and likness of God when it is given a human soul by God, and at which point there is no consensus by theologians.

So with that, I respect your convictions, and I am not asking the same from you.

My God will convince me otherwise, if I have distorted his sacred word, or the traditions of the church in this matter.

farewell in God’s peace

micah

I have been a Pro-Life Campaigner in Ireland for many years and I do not respect your opinion. It is based on no understanding of the scripture and an apparent pride before actual church teaching.

The views you have will do more harm than good on the pro-life front and I urge you to discuss them with an orthodox catholic priest.

God Bless

Paragraph 1711 CCC:

Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in "seeking and loving what is true and good.

2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a “criminal” practice (GS 27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.

 

[mercytruth]

Of course it’s wrong - but genetic modification of plants does not stop the things created from being plants. Nor does genetic modification of animals stop them being animals.

You’d have an argument in a case where the DNA of said plant or animal was sufficiently changed as to render it really no longer like a plant or animal, but we haven’t reached that point. And cloning, of course, would not render the DNA of the clone anything but human.

Only that science has taken upon itself to alter the original forms of God’s creation whether they be plant, animal or human, which I see as arrogance and disregard for God’s sovereignty over His sacred creation.

I am not asking you to share my convictions in this matter, please do not persuade me that my convictions are wrong. I am giving you the respectful liberty to hold to your convictions.

I just think it is wrong that H.R.212 should be an attempt to force upon any of us who disagree that cloned human embryos, or genetically modified embryos should be granted the status of personhood.

That is blatant disregard towards those of us who are honestly searching for God’s glory, discernment, and will on His earth.

farewell in God’s peace

micah

 

[AdamP88]

Only that science has taken upon itself to alter the original forms of God’s creation whether they be plant, animal or human, which I see as arrogance and disregard for God’s sovereignty over His sacred creation.

I am not asking you to share my convictions in this matter, please do not persuade me that my convictions are wrong. I am giving you the respectful liberty to hold to your convictions.

I just think it is wrong that H.R.212 should be an attempt to force upon any of us who disagree that cloned human embryos, or genetically modified embryos should be granted the status of personhood.

That is blatant disregard towards those of us who are honestly searching for God’s glory, discernment, and will on His earth.

farewell in God’s peace

micah

Your convictions are wrong.

They are persons.

This is the point where you become an oppressor and the lines get blurred.

How can you possibly be catholic and believe the stuff you are writing???

 

[mercytruth]

I have been a Pro-Life Campaigner in Ireland for many years and I do not respect your opinion. It is based on no understanding of the scripture and an apparent pride before actual church teaching.

The views you have will do more harm than good on the pro-life front and I urge you to discuss them with an orthodox catholic priest.

God Bless

Paragraph 1711 CCC:

Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in "seeking and loving what is true and good.

2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a “criminal” practice (GS 27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.

I stand by what I have written, as a ‘practical matter’ what you have cited is true, but not as a dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church:

**These claims are reflective of the traditional teaching recently restated, for example, in the Instruction from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Donum Vitae, that the “human being is to be respected and treated as a person from the moment of conception and therefore from that same moment his rights as a person must be recognized” (I, 1).

The Instruction is careful to note that the Church has not taken a philosophical position on the time of ensoulment. However, “From the moment of conception, the life of every human being is to be respected in an absolute way—” (Donum Vitae, Introduction).

While the hierarchy of the Catholic Church has left open the resolution of the actual time of ensoulment, it has in fact insisted that the prudent response would be to recognize that as a practical matter ensoulment is coincident with fertilization. This position, combined with the traditional respect-for-life position of the Church, is what propels its opposition to embryonic stem-cell research.**

americancatholic.org/newsletters/CU/ac0102.asp

there is nothing more for us to discuss

in God’s peace always

micah

 

[LilyM]

I stand by what I have written, as a ‘practical matter’ what you have cited is true, but not as a dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church:

These claims are reflective of the traditional teaching recently restated, for example, in the Instruction from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Donum Vitae, that the “human being is to be respected and treated as a person from the moment of conception and therefore from that same moment his rights as a person must be recognized” (I, 1).

The Instruction is careful to note that the Church has not taken a philosophical position on the time of ensoulment. However, “From the moment of conception, the life of every human being is to be respected in an absolute way—” (Donum Vitae, Introduction).

While the hierarchy of the Catholic Church has left open the resolution of the actual time of ensoulment, it has in fact insisted that the prudent response would be to recognize that as a practical matter ensoulment is coincident with fertilization. This position, combined with the traditional respect-for-life position of the Church, is what propels its opposition to embryonic stem-cell research.

americancatholic.org/newsletters/CU/ac0102.asp

there is nothing more for us to discuss

in God’s peace always

micah

But if even the Church, while professing not to know when ensoulment takes places, agrees that all human life, even the possibly not-yet-ensouled, is to be protected, And you can agree that clones are both human and living, the why can’t you agree with it that they need protection?

Has the Church ever said ‘no Catholic can support legislation which declares the unborn to be persons at conception because we don’t really know’ - of course not. It wholeheartedly has, if memory serves, supported many proposed bills which state just that! Because it is so important to err on the side of caution in protecting even potential life.

 

[mercytruth]

But if even the Church, while professing not to know when ensoulment takes places, agrees that all human life, even the possibly not-yet-ensouled, is to be protected, And you can agree that clones are both human and living, the why can’t you agree with it that they need protection?

Has the Church ever said ‘no Catholic can support legislation which declares the unborn to be persons at conception because we don’t really know’ - of course not. It wholeheartedly has, if memory serves, supported many proposed bills which state just that! Because it is so important to err on the side of caution in protecting even potential life.

Lily, how many times do I have to repeat myself? Scientists who change, distort, or even copy the life forms of God’s original sacred creation in a lab separate from the natural order of God’s sacred order of reproduction are not generating humans in the image and likeness of God.

They are taking upon themselves to generate or make something that is a distortion. To be truly human we must be generated from the original forms and natural order of God’s sacred will. If we make exceptions, we would then identify any sort of ‘monster’ that has some degree of human DNA as a human being.

This would be a mockery of God to call such a creature a human being. Let me requote what this act says:

the life of each human being begins with fertilization, cloning, or its functional equivalent

What exactly is a functional equivalent, unless it is some sort of clone, or other embryo that may be genetically modified?

To myself, this is unacceptable.

please I have nothing more to say

God’s peace to you

micah

 

[LilyM]

Lily, how many times do I have to repeat myself? Scientists who change, distort, or even copy the life forms of God’s original sacred creation in a lab separate from the natural order of God’s sacred order of reproduction are not generating humans in the image and likeness of God.

They are taking upon themselves to generate or make something that is a distortion. To be truly human we must be generated from the original forms and natural order of God’s sacred will. If we make exceptions, we would then identify any sort of ‘monster’ that has some degree of human DNA as a human being.

This would be a mockery of God to call such a creature a human being. Let me requote what this act says:

the life of each human being begins with fertilization, cloning, or its functional equivalent

What exactly is a functional equivalent, unless it is some sort of clone, or other embryo that may be genetically modified?

To myself, this is unacceptable.

please I have nothing more to say

God’s peace to you

micah

God created Adam out of dust. Not by having sex. God created Eve out of Adam’s rib. Not by having sex. Jesus was certainly not created by virtue of any sexual act either.

Where do you get this idea that sex (or sexual reproduction) is required in order to create a human being - or for God to impart a human soul to any being? Such an idea certainly flies in the face of scripture.

No doubt scientists fly in the face of God’s will to attempt such a thing.

And yet - we do play God successfully all the time. If I were to murder a person that would be playing God, for the power of death is ultimately reserved to Him alone. But would He step in to prevent that bullet or knife from effectively dealing death? Of course not. He doesn’t usually interfere in the consequences of sin in that way. He will very likely take that person’s soul at the time of my choosing, wrong as it was for me to choose. So who is to say that He will not grant life, and a soul, as He so often grants death and takes souls, at the time of a scientist’s choosing, wrong as it is for them to choose?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Scientists who change, distort, or even copy the life forms of God’s original sacred creation in a lab separate from the natural order of God’s sacred order of reproduction are not generating humans in the image and likeness of God.

Whoa, full stop. That is a contradiction. A human is made in the image and likeness of God and has a soul. Every time. If it’s biologically human, it has a human soul. It’s Thomistic philosophy 101.

A cloned human is a human. Humans have human souls.

 

[acarlson]

I just think it is wrong that H.R.212 should be an attempt to force upon any of us who disagree that cloned human embryos, or genetically modified embryos should be granted the status of personhood.

. . . wait.

But, isn’t this the same argument most pro-choice individuals use when Catholics claim that a human being is a human being from the moment of conception . . . just in a different paradigm?

If you want to speak of slippery slopes. . .

HMM. . . . I notice that my point still stands. I also notice that it was completely ignored the first time around. Do you have anything to say, mercytruth?

Also, it seems as if you conveniently skipped over the part of the document that you CLAIM supports YOUR convictions when, in reality, it does not. You see . . .

The Instruction is careful to note that the Church has not taken a philosophical position on the time of ensoulment. However, “From the moment of conception, the life of every human being is to be respected in an absolute way—” (Donum Vitae, Introduction).

In layman’s terms: it doesn’t matter if a life has a soul or does not have a soul. The moment the life is conceived, it is to be treated as any other life.

Again, what do you have to say?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

In layman’s terms: it doesn’t matter if a life has a soul or does not have a soul. The moment the life is conceived, it is to be treated as any other life.

I’d go even stronger than that. EVERY life has a soul. A soul just means it’s alive. But if it can be proven the body of a clone is biologically human, then the soul is biologically human.

 

[mercytruth]

This sort of attitude is the typical outgrowth of the edicts of 380 and 445 AD that proceeded forth from the civil/religious hierarchy of Rome.

First, to grant civil authority to persecute those who do not **perfectly **agree with the very complicated and intricate issues of theology.

Second, to grant the religious heirarchy of Rome universal jurisdiction over all who profess their faith in Jesus Christ.

The religious progeny of these two edicts have made such children unyielding, religiously proud, and closed minded.

Even when I say, that you are free to express your convictions. and I respect you for them, you want to turn around in your own religious arrogance, and refuse to respect those who do not agree with you perfectly.

You are sadly, the religious children of the edicts of 380 AD and 445 AD. And because I refuse to acknowlege the legitimacy of the authority behind these edicts, I am effectively anathematized.

May God show all of us the roots of our own religious and spiritual pride so
that we do not think we are better or wiser than anyone else.

Without him we are nothing, and can do nothing.

May God’s humble peace prevail over all of us

micah