The implications of the phrase: protestant reformation.

[joe370]

I am told by most non-Catholics that the Catholic Church, in communion with Rome, is not the church founded by Jesus Christ circa 33 AD, in Jerusalem, yet the Protestant reformation stems from the Catholic church, in communion with Rome.

If the CC is not the church founded by Jesus (just another man-made church) -then why the need for the protestant reformation?

Shouldn’t the church, founded by Jesus Christ, first be located and then reformed?

Doesn’t the word reformation suggest that the Catholic Church was in fact the church founded by Jesus?

 

[bogeydogg]

The Reformers never argued that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church was not the Church which was given us by Christ. Rather they said that Rome by her practice and adding to of that original faith had strayed from it and ceased to be the actual One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. It is not an issue of what a Church chooses to call itself I have attended many protestant churches which freely called themselves members of the Catholic Faith. Rather the test is one of Doctrine which is why the original Reformers wanted to reform the Magisterium not leave the Church. The Church showed the Reformers to door at Trent.

By the way the term protestant does not have to do with the Reformers and Rome but rather the Remonstrance with the Arminians against the Reformed Churches as well as the Anabaptists against the State Reformed Churches.

 

[ChrisRedfield47]

“In the Catholic Church . . . a few spiritual men attain [wisdom] in this life, in such a way that . . . they know it without any doubting, while the rest of the multitude finds [its] greatest safety not in lively understanding but in the simplicity of believing. . . . [T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in her bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius], keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani Called “The Foundation” 4:5 [A.D. 397]).

Augustine

 

[ChrisRedfield47]

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is catholic and which is called catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard” (The True Religion 7:12 [A.D. 390]).

Augustine

“It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God…Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance and which takes a health-promoting care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject” (Divine Institutes 4:30:11–13 [A.D. 307]).

Lactantius

 

[ChrisRedfield47]

Joe have no doubts that our church is the one Founded by christ. I could point out several reasons why, but I will only point out one.

Matthew 16:18 “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”

This passage means a few things that ill point out:
1-Christ founded his church upon Peter. Need prove that his church still exists? Look at the pope
2-That his Church would last forever. Yep even in heaven his church is present there. The Saints are part of the church even after death for example.
Most protestant think there was a need for a reformation because the true church fell into apostasy and stopped being the church Jesus founded. But we know that the church Jesus founded will never fall into apostasy.
3-We can assume that the gates of hell (Evil) will try to ovecome the church,but will not prevail.

So from this passage we know that all those reformations cannot be the Church founded by Christ, because they all have their own founders and their own date of orgination (most cant be traced back before the 1550s). In the Case of the Catholic church, the founder is Jesus Christ not a man like Martin Luther.

 

[joe370]

Hey bogeydogg, you said:

The Reformers never argued that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church was not the Church which was given us by Christ.

So it’s your position that non-Catholics believe that the Catholic church was founded by Jesus?

Rather they said that Rome by her practice and adding to of that original faith had strayed from it and ceased to be the actual One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So the CC, founded by God, ceased to be the actual One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church? Where, today, can the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church be found?

It is not an issue of what a Church chooses to call itself I have attended many protestant churches which freely called themselves members of the Catholic Faith.

I was just wondering: What are the names of those protestant churches?

 

[joe370]

I have no doubts brother.

Joe have no doubts that our church is the one Founded by christ. I could point out several reasons why, but I will only point out one.

Matthew 16:18 “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”

This passage means a few things that ill point out:
1-Christ founded his church upon Peter. Need prove that his church still exists? Look at the pope
2-That his Church would last forever. Yep even in heaven his church is present there. The Saints are part of the church even after death for example.
Most protestant think there was a need for a reformation because the true church fell into apostasy and stopped being the church Jesus founded. But we know that the church Jesus founded will never fall into apostasy.
3-We can assume that the gates of hell (Evil) will try to ovecome the church,but will not prevail.

So from this passage we know that all those reformations cannot be the Church founded by Christ, because they all have their own founders and their own date of orgination (most cant be traced back before the 1550s). In the Case of the Catholic church, the founder is Jesus Christ not a man like Martin Luther.

 

[GeorgeTheWild]

It is not an issue of what a Church chooses to call itself I have attended many protestant churches which freely called themselves members of the Catholic Faith.

I would say that the majority of protestants would claim to be a part of the Catholic Faith… when Catholic is used in it’s Latin sense to mean universal and not to indicate the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church in communion with the Holy See. The majority of protestants agree that despite our differences in the interpretation of doctrine, we are all in fact Christian and members of one universal, or catholic, faith. In fact, most of the large protestant churches recite the Nicene creed which proclaims the Catholicness of their faith. (except Baptists which aren’t all that into creeds)

 

[Timothy17]

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is catholic and which is called catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard” (The True Religion 7:12 [A.D. 390]).

Augustine

“It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God…Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance and which takes a health-promoting care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject” (Divine Institutes 4:30:11–13 [A.D. 307]).

Lactantius

Excellent quotes Chris As true today as they were thousands of years ago.

Pax Christi,
Tim

 

[InspiritCarol]

Hey bogeydogg, you said:

So it’s your position that non-Catholics believe that the Catholic church was founded by Jesus?

So the CC, founded by God, ceased to be the actual One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church? Where, today, can the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church be found?

I was just wondering: What are the names of those protestant churches?

I am the representative to the Ecumenical Councils here in town (yes there’s more than one) as well as the token Roman Catholic at many of their bible studies; so I can say with confidence that bogeydogg and GeorgeTheWild are correct (good to know about Baptists and creeds in general - I should have noticed that). All told, we have 15+ different denominations in a town that numbers <5000.

In general, most denominations feel that all denominations are part the little “c”, “catholic” church with, “not a Pope, but Jesus Christ as its head”. (I hear that a lot and (Thank God) usually have the chance to correct false implications: of course Jesus Christ is the head of the Roman Catholic Church as well).

There are some wacky “Baptists” (not most Baptists - I’ve encountered), or “Non-Denoms.” that claim that they are part of some “underground” church that has existed since Christ despite the “evil Papists”. lol The more open-minded ones think they need to save us poor deluded Catholics, the less Christian ones think we’re the Devil’s minions and not only going to hell, but attempting to take as many people as we can with us.

Off the top of my head: the Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopals and Methodists use the Nicene creed on (to my understanding) a regular basis.

But don’t take my word for it, look here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

The Nicene Creed has been normative to the Anglican Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Assyrian Church of the East, Oriental Orthodox churches, the Roman Catholic Church including the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Old Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church and most Protestant denominations. [1] The Apostles’ Creed, which in its present form is later, is also broadly accepted in the West, but is not used in the East.

 

[Nevermore22]

Excellent quotes Chris As true today as they were thousands of years ago.

Pax Christi,
Tim

They were rather good. Thanks for posting them, Chris!

In Christ,
Nevermore

 

[ChrisRedfield47]

They were rather good. Thanks for posting them, Chris!

In Christ,
Nevermore

Keep it up in RCIA dude =P

 

[bogeydogg]

Joe in response to your question I would absolutely say that the Church Christ founded is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. However I would say that Church is not found exclusively within any church today. Rather, since we are quoting Augustine here, I believe the Church is now and always was a mixed body, that mixture being the wheat which belongs exclusively to the Sower and the chaff which is destined for the fire and to be blown away, the Church is found properly within the saved.

As such the Catholic Faith is not found only among the Baptists or the Catholics or the Lutherans or the Presbyterians and yet is found in all of these. The Church is Christ’s Body which belongs to Him as a possession given Him of the Father.

However, given that a person believes they are saved by grace (RCC teaches this) that Christ is Lord and God and Savior (RCC this too) that the sacraments at least of Baptism and the Table are taken (RCC here too) then I think a great deal of the controversy between RCC and others is one of form more than substance.

BTW these qualifications come directly from Benedict XVI.

For this reason I feel no need to save RCC believers from Rome any more than I feel a need to save Baptists from their church. The test of the tree is its fruit and if the works which rise up from salvation are present I see no need to save anyone since the the love of Christ is found only in the saved, and therefore those who love Christ (ie those who do His work in His name for His glory) do not a further or greater or more complete salvation.

Concerning churches which declare themselves to be of the Catholic Faith I have attended Baptist (some of which are very confessional), Lutheran and Catholic Churches which have all declared this and I know as well that Presbyterian Churches do the same.

But again, I believe the the Church is in the life and works of the saved and of course no heretic would point to his own house for the church, but since he is not part of the church if he is truly a heretic then I wonder to where he would point.

 

[joe370]

Hey bogeydogg…

J

oe in response to your question I would absolutely say that the Church Christ founded is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. However I would say that Church is not found exclusively within any church today. Rather, since we are quoting Augustine here, I believe the Church is now and always was a mixed body, that mixture being the wheat which belongs exclusively to the Sower and the chaff which is destined for the fire and to be blown away, the Church is found properly within the saved.

I think, what you are saying is: Jesus is the founder of every church regardless of church affiliation, and regardless of when when each and every church was founded?

As such the Catholic Faith is not found only among the Baptists or the Catholics or the Lutherans or the Presbyterians and yet is found in all of these. The Church is Christ’s Body which belongs to Him as a possession given Him of the Father.

I agree that all churches comprise Jesus’ Mystical Body which is terribly fractured, but I also believe that one of these churches continues to be the church of Matthew 16, John 16:13, John 14:16, Matthew 28:20, otherwise doctrinal truth is merely up for grabs; you know what I mean? I could start a church tomorrow and reject the Trinity and baptism by water, just as others have done, and since the bible would be my only authority, no one person or church leadership would have any right to question my judgment; something doesn’t seem right about that or biblical.

However, given that a person believes they are saved by grace (RCC teaches this) that Christ is Lord and God and Savior (RCC this too) that the sacraments at least of Baptism and the Table are taken (RCC here too) then I think a great deal of the controversy between RCC and others is one of form more than substance.

BTW these qualifications come directly from Benedict XVI.

For this reason I feel no need to save RCC believers from Rome any more than I feel a need to save Baptists from their church. The test of the tree is its fruit and if the works which rise up from salvation are present I see no need to save anyone since the the love of Christ is found only in the saved, and therefore those who love Christ (ie those who do His work in His name for His glory) do not a further or greater or more complete salvation.

So it seems what you are saying is that church affiliation matters naught - correct?

Concerning churches which declare themselves to be of the Catholic Faith I have attended Baptist (some of which are very confessional), Lutheran and Catholic Churches which have all declared this and I know as well that Presbyterian Churches do the same.

Well, I guess the Catholic church better get a new name to distinguish itself from all the other CC’s. LOL…

But again, I believe the the Church is in the life and works of the saved and of course no heretic would point to his own house for the church, but since he is not part of the church if he is truly a heretic then I wonder to where he would point

.

Then it seems reasonable that anyone can start a church and teach according to his/her interpretation of his/her bible, and his/her church will be considered the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - correct?

 

[Rollo]

I am told by most non-Catholics that the Catholic Church, in communion with Rome, is not the church founded by Jesus Christ circa 33 AD, in Jerusalem, yet the Protestant reformation stems from the Catholic church, in communion with Rome.

If the CC is not the church founded by Jesus (just another man-made church) -then why the need for the protestant reformation?

Shouldn’t the church, founded by Jesus Christ, first be located and then reformed?

Doesn’t the word reformation suggest that the Catholic Church was in fact the church founded by Jesus?

People who deny this are trolls

 

[ciero]

I prefer to call it the Protestant DEFORMATION

 

[bogeydogg]

Joe just because I think that true Christians can found in many different churches does not mean that I think doctrine does not matter. I care deeply about doctrine. That is why i bother with coming on here.

However i am thoroughly persuaded that God can save people out of a church with perverted teaching about the Gospel and therefore I do not name call and slander people as does happen to me on here from time to time (see above). Such salvation is in spite of the teachings of a church and not because of them because God has the power to override the failings of men and gather his own no matter where they are.

Salvation belongs to our God and not a building or its sign or even the teaching found therein no matter how much authority it may arrogate to itself.

God Bless

 

[joe370]

Bogeydogg;7617061]Joe just because I think that true Christians can found in many different churches does not mean that I think doctrine does not matter. I care deeply about doctrine. That is why i bother with coming on here.

I am glad you care deeply about doctrine!

However i am thoroughly persuaded that God can save people out of a church with perverted teaching about the Gospel and therefore I do not name call and slander people as does happen to me on here from time to time (see above).

Agreed. By the way, I don’t believe that ciero was calling you names or attempting to slander you.

Such salvation is in spite of the teachings of a church and not because of them because God has the power to override the failings of men and gather his own no matter where they are.

Agreed.

Salvation belongs to our God and not a building or its sign or even the teaching found therein no matter how much authority it may arrogate to itself.

God Bless

Agreed, however, I don’t believe that the CC makes a claim of authority without justification, if in fact it is the church of Matthew 16. I am fairly certain that we agree that Jesus said to just one church, out of so many churches in the world today, the following:

"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Bogeydogg, I am told by many non-Catholics that the Catholic Church, in communion with Rome, is not the church founded by Jesus Christ circa 33 AD, in Jerusalem, yet the Protestant reformation stems from the Catholic church, in communion with Rome.

Shouldn’t the church, founded by Jesus Christ, first be located and then reformed, if necessary??

If the CC is not the church founded by Jesus (just another man-made church) - then why the need for the protestant reformation? No need to reform a church founded by mere man vs God!

It seems to me that the word reformation suggest that the Catholic Church is in fact the church founded by Jesus and if the church founded by Jesus (I will build my church - Matthew 16) - needs to be reformed shouldn’t Jesus’ church be reformed from within, with Jesus being the one in charge, as opposed to being reformed from without by mere dissenters in newly founded churches, even if those dissidents have good reason to dissent?

Your thoughts friend, keeping in mind that I agree with what you said?

 

[bogeydogg]

Joe I would say that no church on earth in its entirety is the Church of Jesus Christ. Rather the Church (ecclesia- the called out ones) is comprised of the saved. Of course the Church is found in Rome. I have a great and abiding affection for Rome even though I am not a Catholic, however I have found from time to time folks within almost every, if not in fact every, denominational stripe arguing that they are the sum total of every truth of Christ and thus are THE Church.

Usually these folks also think the Pope is the antichrist and all Catholics are going to Hell (i e Jack Chick)

I have a severe allergy to this sort of thought. I suppose part of the reason is that I was raised in the LDS group and was led to believe that all my Baptist friends were headed for outer darkness while at the same time being assured by my Baptist friends that I and my whole family were going to Hell.

When I left the LDS, btw because of a man within that group who was a true Christian and was working within as a missionary for Christ, I explored many religions and found that there were core truths found in Scripture which a lot, but by no means not all, churches embraced. I think these truths are summed up quite well by the Apostles’ Creed and I am persuaded that, apart from the grace of God, no one can believe these things in earnest.

That being said I think those who do hold the truths in truth are Christian no matter under which sign they go to church.

I think that is what Augustine meant when he spoke of the mixed body; that it is the True Faith held in true faith which makes the Church. And that is what i believe.

For this reason any private interpreter which says God spoke to him and he has all the truth is no more a Christian than my standing in my garage makes me a car. I wholly agree that most people have no business reading the Bible without someone to guide them, and I say this because I was carefully guided as I read it, and I love that Rome teaches her people not only that they should believe, but also what to believe. If more churches which cling to the Apostles’ Creed had this attitude the Church would be stronger.

God Bless

 

[joe370]

Hey bogeydogg…

Joe I would say that no church on earth in its entirety is the Church of Jesus Christ. Rather the Church (ecclesia- the called out ones) is comprised of the saved. Of course the Church is found in Rome. I have a great and abiding affection for Rome even though I am not a Catholic, however I have found from time to time folks within almost every, if not in fact every, denominational stripe arguing that they are the sum total of every truth of Christ and thus are THE Church.

I think I understand! You do not believe that truth can still be found in any one church via the perpetual guidance of the holy spirit, anymore, which means you must believe that all churches, on an aggregate basis, regardless of denomination, via the guidance of the HS, are in fact the sum total of every truth of Christ, or perhaps you believe that all truth is no longer ascertainable as it was early on?

Usually these folks also think the Pope is the antichrist and all Catholics are going to Hell (i e Jack Chick)

Very sad indeed considering we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, and we all comprise the fractured Mystical Body of Christ, of which Christ is the Head and Savior. I guess all we can do is love and pray for folks like Jack Chick.

*But I tell you this: Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. Matthew 5 *

For this reason any private interpreter which says God spoke to him and he has all the truth is no more a Christian than my standing in my garage makes me a car.

Very good point. I believe, as scripture says: Only the church founded by Jesus Christ Himself, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, in the 1st century, Who continues to guide and preserve doctrinal truth in His established church, can make that claim. Of course there are some pretty self explanatory things found in the bible with which everyone agrees.

I wholly agree that most people have no business reading the Bible without someone to guide them, and I say this because I was carefully guided as I read it, and I love that Rome teaches her people not only that they should believe, but also what to believe. If more churches which cling to the Apostles’ Creed had this attitude the Church would be stronger.

I guess the question remains: which church, via the guidance of the HS, has the authority to guide others into all truth, as per John 14:16 and John 16:13? To which church in the world today, did Jesus say:

"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

The apostles creed, by itself, is wonderful indeed, and put together by the CC, but in and of itself I don’t believe it should be the binding authority by which all Christians are guided. Logically speaking, it should be the church that gave us the trustworthy creed - yes, no maybe?