The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

[EricFilmer]

That is like saying a musician likes the instrument more than he likes music because he/she always talks about the instrument.

Gregg, although I appreciate lots of things that have been posted by the various people in this thread, I really like this one in particular.

Well said!

I would certainly like to add that “arrow” to my “quiver.”

 

[JustaServant]

Why don’t you just answer the question. Is there a Catholic faith without Mary? I didn’t ask if Jesus would have been born without Mary, nor challenge the fact that she bore Him, but, “is there a Catholic faith without Mary?” Now before you answer, think about the question. All I’ve gotten so far is just a bunch of defense answers…

Have you stopped beating your wife?
The inferance in your question is what stands out. Tell ya what, YOU answer it for us all unenlightened pupils

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Here is the problem 1) she is a creature and no more important than me or Joseph or Paul or Peter, we are all chosen of God and God shows no partiality and His love is perfect to all He has chosen, but that would mean you have to know Him and to know Him is to understand and to love Him for who He actually is. 2) What about Mary’s mother, Mary’s grand mother, great grand mother, great great grand mother; you see taking it to the nth degree we come back to Adam and Eve, which brings us straight to God as the Creator of all creatures. Are all these mother’s of God? No! God is not a creature and therefore has no mother in the sense you seem to think of it.

1. She is more important than them and you! I am not sure what you are trying to say here but always remember who gave birth to Christ. You, Joseph, Paul nor Peter gave birth to anyone, much less God Himself. Another thing, are you comparing yourself to Mary (Mother of God), Joseph (father of the Holy Family), Paul and Peter (2 of the 12 Apostles of Christ, writers in the New Testament and pillars of the Church)? Hmm… I wish I had that much confidence. Actually, nevermind that. Pride is the root of most, if not all, sin.
2. Ahh yes… The old atheist retort of causality. I used that one a lot until I realized that it was simply illogical and unintelligent. Wait a second… I thought you were a Christian. Oh yeah! I remember now… You were the one who separated His Divinity from His Humanity in order to get out of the Mother of God scheme. If you can give me one good reason (that is, without separating His Divinity from His Humanity) that Mary is not the Mother of God, then we can have a reasonable discussion. Until then, I will defend Truth along with my Catholics brethren on here and the few non-Catholics who actually respect us on this site.

 

[StTommyMore]

So, without Mary there is no Catholicism? She’s preeminent. All of Catholicism rests on the consent of a woman.

All of Christianity rests on the consent of Mary. It just so happens that half of Chritianity chooses to ignore her.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Actually; don’t you put God in a box called a tabernacle made with human hands?

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.

Well, when you put it THAT way, it does sound ridiculous. Too bad your interpretation of a Catholic practice is terrible at best. Do you worship in a coffee shop called a church? Do you pray with pieces of paper called a Bible? Do we use for worship dust called a body? Do you carry a plus sign called a cross? There is no sense in denigrating the latter to fit the former to make it fit your opinions. That is childish.

AMEN to your Bible verse. Finally, we agree on something!

 

[JustaServant]

So, without Mary there is no Catholicism? She’s preeminent. All of Catholicism rests on the consent of a woman.

Do you believe women in general should have no ability to advise or give consent?
That’s a pretty low opinion of women.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Quit using logic and rational and reason already.

Noted. Mary is NOT Mother of God because Jesus is in fact God. Mary is Jesus’ mother. Jesus is God. Mary is not Mother of God. Better? It is all starting to click.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Actually; MD and I would both appreciate you keeping her in the context of Scripture alone.

I encourage you to do the same. Tell me where Mary sinned. Tell me how Mary is not Mother of God. Tell me how she is not even the mother of Jesus. Tell me when it was that Mary died. Tell me where it says that God is God of the dead (you refered to "dead saints’). Tell me where it says that the Catholic Church is wrong.

We will have answers ready for these that you give. That is, if you even have any.

 

[moondweller]

All of Christianity rests on the consent of Mary. It just so happens that half of Chritianity chooses to ignore her.

I see no “consent of Mary” in the Scriptures. Mary’s words in Lk. 1:38: “Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word,” are not words of “consent” but words of FAITH in God’s Word. This is confirmed by the words of Elizabeth in Lk. 1:45:"And blessed {is} she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord."Now contrast that with what Gabriel said to Zacharias:Luke 1:20 "And behold, you shall be silent and unable to speak until the day when these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their proper time."Gabriel wasn’t sent to get “consent” from anyone. That’s a false interpretation of no small magnitude.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

You said "Mary was chosen by God (from the beginning of humanity ";

Who came first Jesus or Mary? If Jesus was God; why do you put Mary as a restriction on God? I thought Jesus was God; so why would there be no Jesus w/out Mary?

To your credit, the person you quoted did say it in a very weird way. I am not talking about the quotes in quotations but the quote you responded to. Those quotations are dead on!

Tell me something. Did God just happen by chance to be born of Mary? If you say yes, I can certainly see why you do not think much of her. If not, then what was the purpose to be born of Mary? I am talking about just a “way” to get to our temporal world. I am just talking strictly from Mary, the woman.

Apparently, God was just saying, “I wonder who I will be born to when I come to save my people.” Most things and events happen for a reason. By her free will, she could have said no (Joseph also). She did not though.

I understand that you want us to stop using reasoning but I am curious to see how you are to refute this.

Mary is Jesus’ Mother.
Jesus is God.
Mary is Mother of God.

I do have some rules though. By the law of non-contradictions, Jesus is God but not the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is not the Holy Trinity. So, by reason, one cannot say Mary is Mother of the Trinity, Mother of the Father or Mother of the Holy Spirit because those would just sound ridiculous. Another rule is that you cannot mix up eternal with temporal. In our temporal realm, His Divinity and Humanity CANNOT be separated as you wish it can be. Jesus is 100% God. Jesus is 100% Man. I think we can get somewhere if you can give a logical answer to this.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I see no “consent of Mary” in the Scriptures. Mary’s words in Lk. 1:38: “Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word,” are not words of “consent” but words of FAITH in God’s Word. This is confirmed by the words of Elizabeth in Lk. 1:45:"And blessed {is} she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord."Now contrast that with what Gabriel said to Zacharias:Luke 1:20 "And behold, you shall be silent and unable to speak until the day when these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their proper time."Gabriel wasn’t sent to get “consent” from anyone. That’s a false interpretation of no small magnitude.

Hmm… “Spoken” and not “written”. Interesting.

Anyway, these verses have nothing to do with what the poster you replied to said. In any case, OF COURSE we do not see “consent of Mary” in Scriptures. By that statement, are you saying the Incarnation is a false interpretation? The Blessed Trinity? The Holy Spirit is God? The Bible? Sola Scriptura?

In the kingdom of David, who was the Queen? What did she do? Are these pre-figurations (pre-figurements?) to the New Testament or do they just happen to be there?

 

[StTommyMore]

I see no “consent of Mary” in the Scriptures. Mary’s words in Lk. 1:38: “Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word,” are not words of “consent” but words of FAITH in God’s Word. This is confirmed by the words of Elizabeth in Lk. 1:45:"And blessed {is} she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord."Now contrast that with what Gabriel said to Zacharias:Luke 1:20 "And behold, you shall be silent and unable to speak until the day when these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their proper time."Gabriel wasn’t sent to get “consent” from anyone. That’s a false interpretation of no small magnitude.

“Let it be done according to your word”–that is consent. God also got consent from Moses, and Abraham, and Gideon, etc.

 

[paul_c]

You do not need to convince me that you worship statues, relics, Mary and dead saints; I’m convinced, but that means nothing, nothing. I would be concerned about how God sees it though.

Calvin, unfortunately, you misunderstand Catholic practice. We do not worship statues, relics, Mary or Dead saints. First of all, the Saints are in heaven and are more alive than you or I. Don’t you believe in the resurrection of the dead? We don’t worship them, we try to emulate them, because they followed Jesus well enough to get to heaven. And we ask their assistance. You see, we also believe in the communion of Saints, where all Christians living, those in heaven and those in Purgatory help each other get to heaven.
We do not worship Relics or statues. These are merely ways to remind us of those that have gone before us marked with the sign of Faith.

Everything is not in Scripture; but all that God chose to reveal to the Christian is; to all others man has added to the Word of God, which God warned about doing in at least 2 places and maybe even a third. So again it matters not what I think; I always concern myself about what my Father thinks.

Most of what God requires of Christians is in Scripture. but not all. For instance, we all use tradition to understand scripture. You use reformed tradition, so you read scripture to say that Faith is all you need. This was a 16th century innovation. And remember, the reformers did indeed alter scripture. Luther famously inserted the word “alone” in St. Paul’s letter to the Corinthians and subtracted 7 books from the Old testament. And every time you ignore admonitions to be baptized or partake in the eucharist, you are subtracting from scripture. And everytime you say that salvation is from Faith alone, you like Luther, add the word “alone” to scripture because it never says that salvation is by faith alone. Salvation requires Faith, but it also requires baptism, the eucharist, following the commandments, doing the will of the Father, and doing works of mercy: all of which are stated clearly in scripture.

Who is “Jean Calvin” anyway?

. The father of Calvinism.

 

[EricFilmer]

I see no “consent of Mary” in the Scriptures. Mary’s words in Lk. 1:38: “Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word,” are not words of “consent” but words of FAITH in God’s Word…

Gabriel wasn’t sent to get “consent” from anyone. That’s a false interpretation of no small magnitude.

Uhhhh yeah…Moondweller, you do realize that to impregnate a woman without her consent is rape, don’t you?

 

[paul_c]

I see no “consent of Mary” in the Scriptures. Mary’s words in Lk. 1:38: “Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word,” are not words of “consent” but words of FAITH in God’s Word. This is confirmed by the words of Elizabeth in Lk. 1:45:"And blessed {is} she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord."Now contrast that with what Gabriel said to Zacharias:Luke 1:20 "And behold, you shall be silent and unable to speak until the day when these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their proper time."Gabriel wasn’t sent to get “consent” from anyone. That’s a false interpretation of no small magnitude.

How can you see no consent from Mary in her statement in Luke 1:38

Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her.

She is clearly assenting to being the Mother of the Lord. This was not insignificant on her part. She was betrothed to Joseph. He would surely be unhappy to say the least to find her pregnant. And you also should know that the penalty for adultery was stoning. She had faith, yes to be sure, Abundant faith. And because she trusted God, she assented to a becoming pregnant and the inherent risks associated with that. Remember, if she hadn’t consented, this would be akin to rape. Do you really want to go there?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

GreggAlvarez;7291469:

Wrong wrong wrong.

That is like saying a musician likes the instrument more than he likes music because he/she always talks about the instrument.

Gregg, although I appreciate lots of things that have been posted by the various people in this thread, I really like this one in particular.

Well said!

I would certainly like to add that “arrow” to my “quiver.”

Thanks!

 

[Pax]

Never met a Catholic that did not exhult Mary more than Jesus; havn’t seen it on this thread except by one who seems to be Catholc by name only and some of you have made that clearly known.

Then you’ve never met a Catholic. Catholics do not exalt Mary more than Jesus. Furthermore, it is God that exalts…we merely reflect and reiterate that which God has done in his creatures including Mary the mother of Jesus.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+
(Edited to remove quote of deleted post)

It is actually you who missed the point and (thank you for it) actually proved MY point. I admit that Jesus’ Resurrection is the most important aspect of our faith: St Paul said, “if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain” (1 Cor 15:14). The Catholic Church also holds Easter as the most important holiday in its calendar. And yet I was not talking about the Lord’s Resurrection; rather, I was talking about the Lord’s Life and Death. But since the death of Jesus is the one that immediately precursors His Resurrection, you immediately came to the defense of the Cross and label me as a “blasphemer.”

And yet answer me this: if Jesus was not Incarnated into this world, if He had not lived as a man, could He have even died? If He could not die, would He even be resurrected? That is why I will always maintain that in many ways Mary is as important as the Cross when it comes to our salvation, for it was through Mary’s perfect job as a mother to Jesus that He became the Man that He is, Who because of His human life was able to die and be raised from the dead for our salvation.

Or do you deny that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine? If Jesus in His life on Earth was fully divine then Mary really had no role in the formation of Jesus as a man, for not only did Mary not give her humanity to Him, but she could not even influence Him in His growth, for God is always complete. Yet Jesus was both fully divine and fully human. Mary not only gave her humanity to Him, but also raised Him, taught Him all that she knew, developed His thoughts, influenced His decisions (remember the wedding at Cana?), and thus influenced Jesus’ path to the Cross.

(Edited to remove quote of deleted post)

“And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.” (Mark 12:26-27)So are you advocating us to NOT follow Jesus’ example to use our reason?
(Edited to remove quote of deleted post)

It seems to me you need to meet more Catholics…or you need to get to know those Catholics that you’ve met better.

God bless!

 

[Pax]

Spirithound said this:

Doctrinally, anything we say about Mary is a conclusion of Christology. For example, Mary is Mother of God because Jesus is God.

And you responded with this:

Then Jesus cannot be God; since God always existed. Bad theology.

Calvin95 in Christ,

If you contend that Mary is not the mother of God, then you have fallen into the Nestorian position condemned as heresy at the Council of Ephesus on June 22, 431 A.D.

So please clarify your position.

God bless.

 

[StTommyMore]

Never met a Catholic that did not exhult Mary more than Jesus; havn’t seen it on this thread except by one who seems to be Catholc by name only and some of you have made that clearly known.

Geyuss it is time to break out the ad hominems since logical argument won’t work