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Dymphna82
Guest
Yeah…not returning to this thread. Just, just…ack.
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moondweller
Guest
Such silliness. Your implication by “rape” is that Mary had physical relations with the Holy Spirit and that He has a penis. Such insanity.Luke 1:45 "And blessed {is} she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord."Elizabeth doesn’t say “And blessed is she who consented….”+JMJ+
Oh my, so God intended to RAPE Mary if she didn’t believe?
God bless you.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
God bless.
I point you to EricFilmer’s question. Please answer it:
So let us cut to the chase: Would Mary still have been impregnated if she didn’t “believe”?
God bless.
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EricFilmer
Guest
To impregnate a woman without her consent, regardless of the method used, is rape!
This is so blatantly obvious that for you to deny it shows the lengths that some Protestants will go through to put their brains on a shelf rather than admit the importance of the role that Mary played in God’s plan of salvation.
Let me ask you this: If a man kidnapped a woman and artificially impregnated her against her will, would he be committing a serious crime? Yes!
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
Moondweller, God allowed Elizabeth to be pregnant as an answer to Zechariah’s (and presumably Elizabeth’s) prayers:
But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechari’ah, for your prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John” (John 1:13).
Are you saying that God is willing to impregnate Mary not just without consent but as a surprise imposition on her?
Goodness, the arrogance!
If that is your view of God then I would NEVER want to get into your religion.
God bless.
Exactly.
Moondweller, God allowed Elizabeth to be pregnant as an answer to Zechariah’s (and presumably Elizabeth’s) prayers:
But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechari’ah, for your prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John” (John 1:13).
Are you saying that God is willing to impregnate Mary not just without consent but as a surprise imposition on her?
Goodness, the arrogance!
If that is your view of God then I would NEVER want to get into your religion.God bless.
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paul_c
Guest
Such silliness. Scripture (Luke 1:38) clearly shows Mary consenting. You try to deny this by pointing out that Elizabeth said Mary was blessed be she believed the Angel. So what? Of course Mary believed, but she also consented.
We both understand that if Mary had to consent to being the Mother of our Lord, then this means that she and all man kind do indeed have free will. This militates against your theology and you know it.
Why do allow yourself to continue to follow the lies of the reformation? Man DOES have free will. Man DOES need to say yes to God to be saved. Man DOES need to follow the Lord in words and action to go to heaven. Faith is necessary but not sufficient to get to heaven. It must be followed up with action to be meaningful.
Can you not see the depths to which you have sunk? You are now at the point of attacking and trying to marginalize the Blessed Mother of the Lord. Ask yourself: Is this what Jesus wants? or is it what Satan wants.
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EricFilmer
Guest
Well said! And to think that he considers labeling such things as rape is “silliness” and “such insanity.” I don’t know, maybe he does actually “dwell on the moon”…+JMJ+
Exactly. Goodness, the arrogance!
God bless.
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EricFilmer
Guest
It seems Calvin has been banned. I don’t know the exact reason, but I can’t say I was surprised.
Moondweller, I would like to ask you the same question I asked Calvin. I believe it is relevant to this thread discussion because you both seem to be stating that Mary is not important, and therefore Mary ought to be, in so many words, ignored (and you can correct me on that if I am wrong). My position is that regardless of whether or not Mary is important, she is still to be honored by every Christian.
Mary is the mother of every Christian, including you. Here’s why:
The 10 Commandments require us to honor our mothers.
Jesus gave Mary perfect honor, in the sense of the honor that children are supposed to give their parents. To say otherwise is to say that Jesus did not perfectly obey the 10 Commandments. Therefore, seeing as the head of the Church gave Mary perfect honor, the body of the Church is challenged to honor Mary in the best ways we can.
In light of all this, Moondweller, what do you do to honor Mary?
And what does your own church do? Get a school girl to dress up like her once a year at the Christmas pageant and then ignore her at all the other times during the year?
Moondweller, I would like to ask you the same question I asked Calvin. I believe it is relevant to this thread discussion because you both seem to be stating that Mary is not important, and therefore Mary ought to be, in so many words, ignored (and you can correct me on that if I am wrong). My position is that regardless of whether or not Mary is important, she is still to be honored by every Christian.
Mary is the mother of every Christian, including you. Here’s why:
- As taught in the New Testament, Jesus is the head of his Church, and we Christians make up the body.
- The head of the Church, Jesus, has a mother: Mary.
- The mother of the head is likewise the mother of the body. Therefore, Mary is the mother of every Christian.
The 10 Commandments require us to honor our mothers.
Jesus gave Mary perfect honor, in the sense of the honor that children are supposed to give their parents. To say otherwise is to say that Jesus did not perfectly obey the 10 Commandments. Therefore, seeing as the head of the Church gave Mary perfect honor, the body of the Church is challenged to honor Mary in the best ways we can.
In light of all this, Moondweller, what do you do to honor Mary?
And what does your own church do? Get a school girl to dress up like her once a year at the Christmas pageant and then ignore her at all the other times during the year?
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moondweller
Guest
Well, if you’re going to use that mundane terminology and logic then one MUST conclude, based on that line of reasoning, that: (a) if no consent amounts to “rape,” then (b) consent amounts to adultery (she was betrothed to Joseph at the time).
(1) It’s you who are reading INTO Scripture that which is not there. (2) The work of salvation did not take place until the cross. Not prior to it. Many people (mostly Jewish) “played a role” in God’s plan of salvation, even a whole nation (Israel, see Jn. 4:22). But only ONE Man (who incidentally is Jewish), and ONLY ONE, began, accomplished and finished the work of salvation. No one else, including Mary, played a part in that work. No one but Christ alone. For that reason salvation is based on Christ alone, and the message of true Christianity is faith in Christ alone for salvation, according to the Scriptures.
You ask me a question and then answer it yourself? You can’t handle the answer?
Based on that mundane line of reasoning is adultery a serious crime?
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StTommyMore
Guest
This is all according to your own fallible interpretation, which was done by taking the Scriptures out of their proper place, that is, the liturgy. What this amount to is you are declaring your own dogma. setting up your own tradition. For all intents and purposes you are your own pope, claiming infallibility for yourself. After all, you couldn’t possibly be wrong, and you are presenting your interpretation as absolute truth. Forgive me if I stay with the Bishops of Rome. After all, they at least have apostolic authority.
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paul_c
Guest
Moondweller, look where your reformed theology has led you. You are now actually calling the Blessed Virgin Mary, mother of our Savior, an adultress. Is that really what it takes to support your reformed theology? Why can’t you recognize that the Archangel Gabriel called her ’ Full of Grace" Can’t you see how reality is getting distorted by the lies of the Reformation? How much further will you go down this road before coming to your senses?
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paul_c
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moondweller
Guest
You’re wrong. We don’t “ignore” her at all. We just don’t elevate her to the extrabiblical positions Catholicism does.
As the Scriptures say, she is considered “blessed” among all women, having had been chosen to be the bearer of the Messiah (see Lk. 1:42, 48). There is no instruction in the N.T. to give “honor” to Mary.
I had put up a post on anther thread which Biblically challenged this theory. It was deleted and I was given a warning; so, consequently I cannot respond to this without being kicked off the forum.
All I can say is we, as the Scriptures say, consider her “blessed” among all women. We do not “honor” her. Only one could be chosen to bear the Messiah, hence, we do consider her “blessed.” Our focus at Christmas (or any part of the year) is not Mary but Christ. Always Christ, whom we honor, give glory and worship.
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moondweller
Guest
**I said no such thing!!! ** I was merely following out your own mundane reasoning to its logical conclusion. Paul, please refrain from slanderous remarks. You did this because you can’t handle the logic I presented, so you attacked me personally.
Shall I also lift what Catholics have stated on this thread out of context and claim that they called the Holy Spirit a rapist? God forbid. Nor should you lift what I said out of context and accuse me of such wickedness.
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paul_c
Guest
Moondweller,
In all seriousness, your logic is based on fallacies. How can you call Mary, blessed, without honoring her. And how can you deny the clear language of Luke 1:38 that Mary did indeed consent to her pregnancy? The reason you take these positions is to support the lies that man has no free will and that nothing that man does matters in his going to heaven. And the lies and distortions build until you think that implying that Mary was an adultress is okay because its extends someone else’s statements. Remember, we said that if Mary hadn’t consented, then she would not have become pregnant by the Holy Spirit because the Holy spirit would not have proceeded against Mary’s will. You are the one that said that she didn’t consent, which would have led to the Rape charge. all because you won’t acknolwedge free will and the merit that comes with it for making the choices that God wills for us.
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EricFilmer
Guest
Did you misunderstand my question?
I already know what you don’t do. I asked you what you did do.
So tell me exactly what you do that demonstrates that you don’t ignore her.
Your position in this thread is that Catholics go too far in honoring Mary. My position is that many Protestants don’t go far enough. As a matter-of-fact, many don’t seem to do anything at all.
I already gave you my biblical foundation for the requirement to honor Mary based on both the Old and New Testaments.
The C.A. forum has no policy against debating over biblical interpretations. As a matter-of-fact, such a thing happens on a daily basis in several different forum categories throughout C.A. If you were given a warning, it was because you crossed the line somewhere else. We can proceed without crossing that same line. After all, I’m sure the moderator not only gave you a warning, but also pointed out exactly which rule in the forum policy list you were in danger of violating. Tell me which one it was and I am sure we can continue this aspect of our discussion without either of us getting banned.
And I also ask you to give me the link to that other thread. I would like to see how well the theory therein mirrors my own. Plus, you can point out any rebuttals to it (that did not get deleted) and tell me which ones you think are the most credible. Obviously, if any such rebuttals were made and were not deleted, C.A. had no problem with them. Along these lines, I will be happy to address the material of those rebuttals within our current thread.
As I clearly demonstrated, she is your mother.
Previously I used the head and body of the Church example to demonstrate this.
But here is another way of looking at it:
- The New Testament teaches that Christians become brothers and sisters of Christ.
- Therefore we, in turn, become adopted children of his Father.
- If by becoming brothers and sisters of Christ his Father becomes our Father, then likewise his mother becomes our mother.
- God’s law requires us to honor our mothers.
Mary did not say that all generations would “consider” her blessed. She said all generations would “call” her blessed. The difference between the two is that the first is a passive mental acknowledgment, and the latter is an action. The action of calling Mary “blessed” is a way of honoring her. So if you call her “blessed” then in at least that sense you are giving honor to her. So why is honoring Mary supposed to be restricted to just that? Is the honor that the 10 Commandments tells us to give our biological mothers that restrictive?
Our focus is Christ also. But at Christmas we also honor the role that Mary, Joseph, the shepherds, the angels & the Wise Men played. All are depicted in a nativity set, are they not?
But it seems that you once more misunderstood one of my questions.
I asked what your own church does to honor Mary.
Or, if you are uncomfortable with that term, let me put it another way: what does your own church do to acknowledge Mary’s blessed role as mother of Jesus (in any shape or form)?
Fine, Moondweller, then by all means, take a moment to put your statements in context. And you can do so as a response to this…
Example: A man walks up to a woman and says, “My boss has chosen you to be the mother of my son.” He kidnaps her and then his boss to impregnates her through artificial insemination without her consent. Obviously, a serious crime has been committed against her.
The Gospel of Luke states that Gabriel appeared before Mary and told her that she was chosen to be the mother of God’s Son. This was followed by the Holy Spirit conceiving Jesus in her womb. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Mary did not give her consent to this. But whatever occurred between Mary and Gabriel, I think you and I both agree that God (being the God of mercy and justice) would not commit a serious crime against Mary. Therefore, I want you to explain to me the moral difference between my above kidnapping example and your interpretation of the Gospel of Luke.
In the past I labeled your interpretation as a form of rape. But for the sake of my current post, I will withhold that for now. I may come back to it if the information warrants it, but I will withhold it for now. As a matter-of-fact, I will withhold all labels, so there is no issue of me taking you out of context. I’m not even necessarily saying that your interpretation of Luke is the same thing as the example I gave of the kidnapped woman. I am simply asking you to explain to me the fundamental difference between the two.
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EricFilmer
Guest
Here is just a quick “P.S.” to what I said in my last post in response to…
Now, all that you have told me so far is that you and your church do not ignore Mary because you consider her blessed. As my example about the feuding brothers illustrates, considering a characteristic of someone (“my brother”, “blessed”, etc.) does not prove that this person is not also being ignored. If what you say is true (that you and your church do not ignore Mary) then obviously something else must be going on than simply calling her blessed. I’m asking you what that is.
As a clarification to one of my points in my last thread, consider this example: Let us say that a man gets into an argument with his brother, and then stops speaking to his brother. He still considers him his brother, but at the same time he is clearly ignoring him.
Now, all that you have told me so far is that you and your church do not ignore Mary because you consider her blessed. As my example about the feuding brothers illustrates, considering a characteristic of someone (“my brother”, “blessed”, etc.) does not prove that this person is not also being ignored. If what you say is true (that you and your church do not ignore Mary) then obviously something else must be going on than simply calling her blessed. I’m asking you what that is.
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JustaServant
Guest
MD, lets simmer down and talk as adults okay?
First lets lay some groundwork:
Is God the God of the dead or the living? Are those in Heaven living or dead?
In the modern world, when somebody dies, its as if they cease to exist. They are spoken of in the past tense, they were alive once, but now they are dead, gone, they cease to exist. We print their obituaries in the newspaper, show old pictures or film of them and talk about OUR memories.
In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown. To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself.
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.
In the early church, this thinking never changed.
When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’. Hebrews 12:1 says “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again.
The Church is more than we can physically see.
continued…
First lets lay some groundwork:
Is God the God of the dead or the living? Are those in Heaven living or dead?
In the modern world, when somebody dies, its as if they cease to exist. They are spoken of in the past tense, they were alive once, but now they are dead, gone, they cease to exist. We print their obituaries in the newspaper, show old pictures or film of them and talk about OUR memories.
In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown. To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself.
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.
In the early church, this thinking never changed.
When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’. Hebrews 12:1 says “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again.
The Church is more than we can physically see.
continued…
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JustaServant
Guest
Mary is a part of this Communion of Saints.
She is in a very real sense, our mystical connection to the spiritual Church.
How do we understand this?
In Gen. 3:15 we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” The phrase “her seed” is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.
The Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling Satan. This teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve. In John 2:4 and 19:26 Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.
Isaiah 7:14 and Matt. 1:23 tell us a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” Luke 1:35 tells us the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”). In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth says Mary is the “Mother of my Lord” which is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God”.
Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God.
Luke 1:28 states “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel. When Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the very words of God.
The phrase “full of grace”. This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. A few verses down,
Luke 1:42 says “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” Luke 1:48 says Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary”. Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. By calling Mary co-redemptrix,
Catholics are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.
She is in a very real sense, our mystical connection to the spiritual Church.
How do we understand this?
In Gen. 3:15 we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” The phrase “her seed” is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.
The Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling Satan. This teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve. In John 2:4 and 19:26 Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.
Isaiah 7:14 and Matt. 1:23 tell us a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” Luke 1:35 tells us the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”). In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth says Mary is the “Mother of my Lord” which is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God”.
Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God.
Luke 1:28 states “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel. When Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the very words of God.
The phrase “full of grace”. This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. A few verses down,
Luke 1:42 says “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” Luke 1:48 says Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary”. Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. By calling Mary co-redemptrix,
Catholics are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.
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