C
Cecilianus
Guest
They’re not doing us a favor. We did have Great Compline, but they left out five or six of the readings. And the fact that nothing ever changes hasn’t been due to my lack of complaining.
- Status
C
Cecilianus
Guest
Sorry, Seamus - try going to St. Constantine’s Ukrainian Catholic Church in Minneapolis (whose website has minimal information) where they pray the Rosary instead of Orthros before Divine Liturgy. Try not to trip over the confessionals in the back of the church or over the (three-dimensional) crucifixes in the front.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Well, that is the reality we face. Another issue is Catholic Schools. The UGCC does not run any Catholic Schools in our area, but the RC parishes do. And there are discounts if you are parishioners of said RC parishes. So one issue is families with school-age children move to RC parishes if they prefer to send their kids to Catholic schools. Then these kids gain friends who are Roman Catholics, and would now go to Mass instead of DL.
I really don’t know, it was just mentioned to me in a conversation.
As I mentioned on my previous post, the issue could mean the death of the parishes. Of course they want to keep the faithful at the same time keep the tradition. Fact is, most Catholics of any Rite are just happy to do the minimum. They don’t go to CAF like we do to learn and discuss the faith, they don’t spend hours on end reading books about the faith and learning about it. There possibly is no interest beyond the Divine Liturgy on Sundays and Feast Days. I don’t know, I can’t speak for them but that is the impression I get. I hope I’m wrong.
C
ciero
Guest
Unfortunately the Rite is dieing, there may still be asses in the pew, but if we continue to allow the Rite to be dumbed down…it is dieing. And I (and Rome for that matter ) dont care how long these Latinizations have been practiced…they are WRONG and need to be changed!
You have it VERY backwards…reintroduce the traditions…the people and $$ will follow. I really believe the church must be pruned in order for it to flower once again. If thats means we loose people to the Latins then so be it!
And it IS every bit OUR responsibility as much as it is the bishops to make these tough decisions.
C
Cecilianus
Guest
If you are a Roman Catholic, then yes - but they absolutely do not belong in Byzantine Catholic churches.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
I don’t believe it is. I think we just need to let the parishes hang on to what they have until we can revitalize the numbers. Given that myself and a number of other people in this forum has fell in love with the Byzantine Rite, there is hope. God will not let His Church vanish.
It depends from situation to situation. In my area for example, there isn’t a lot of awareness of the Byzantine Rite, even though there are 4 UGCC parishes which offer the Divine Liturgy in English. I’m not even counting the one Melkite mission and Chaldean parish which doesn’t offer their Liturgies in English which would be a barrier for most.
In our situation we can’t stem the tide from losing Latinized parishioners (which would be 80% of the people) and wait for new ones to come in. Judging by our parish membership, there’s only me and one other guy who isn’t Ukrainian. So at this point, not good.
Don’t think I’m not doing anything
But the decision ultimately is the Bishop’s, in any case it is. We do what we can to help and contribute but decisions have to be done by him whom God has called to care for the flock.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
One more thing which I would absolutely hate to happen, is if the EC parishes lose their ability to maintain their own parish and would have to share a parish with a Roman Catholic parish. I mean, many EC missions start that way, and its fine. But to go backwards from having your own parishes down to sharing parishes with another Rite is downright wrong. You lose more of your traditions if you do not have your own distinct traditional architecture.
C
Cecilianus
Guest
Or when you have to ask the Roman archdiocese to build a church for you because you can’t afford to build it yourself. St. George’s Romanian Catholic Church in Chicago is a blooming parish, but it looks like a Lutheran church. The RC bishop was hoping to have the building to himself once the parish died out
D), so he insisted that it be built in Western style or he wouldn’t help out financially with it.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Some of our parishes do not have the distinct Ukrainian architecture outside. I’m suspecting they could be older, existing parishes they bought and converted. They certainly aren’t newly built.Or when you have to ask the Roman archdiocese to build a church for you because you can’t afford to build it yourself. St. George’s Romanian Catholic Church in Chicago is a blooming parish, but it looks like a Lutheran church. The RC bishop was hoping to have the building to himself once the parish died out
5
5Loaves
Guest
This is a phenomena as old as the hills. The Orthodox have frequently sent their kids to Latin Catholic schools, too. Another reason why there’s such a need for good catechesis (East and West). The EC clergy should be over there from time to time to present to the students (all of them) about the ECCs.
As Fr. Loya often says mainly in his TOB teachings “We’ve lost control of our message in the culture.” Other people are saying what the Church believes and teaches and they’ve got it all wrong. 
I’d say that the EC parents and priests should be discussing this with the Latin parish that runs the schools and arrange a way for them to get a parish discount without transferring. They are not to proselytize us so this practice should be faced directly. The point of that discount business is largely to get the families into Church and practicing their faith. If they’re doing it where they belong (the UGCC or elsewhere) that should satisfy that need.
And we could use more of these “kid” initiated posts and blogs like The Guide to Surviving Roman Catholic School as a Byzantine Catholic on I Love Being A Byzantine Catholic And I Will Never Change My Denomination’s Facebook
When Katie Gulas was still a ByzanTEEN Fr. Tom often asked for her reflections on being the EC at a secular college campus and among Latin Catholics. We need to be in control of our own message. Then we can afford to mingle with the others, and teach them a thing or two along the way.
C
Cecilianus
Guest
The “Guide to Surviving Roman Catholic School” is a good guide, but I do feel like a bit of a hypocrite in doing so - just as I value our Byzantine traditions and ask guests at Divine Liturgy to follow them as well (I always show them first how to make the sign of the Cross, and ask them to stand and not to genflect, etc.), I think I ought to do the same at a Roman Catholic church. To begin with, genuflection honors the Eucharist directly at Roman Catholic churches (since there is no iconostas), whereas in our churches we are greeting the icons first. Secondly, though I practice in the Byzantine rite, I would ideally like to be not Roman or Byzantine but Catholic - comfortable and at home in both traditions, claiming both as my patrimony.This is a phenomena as old as the hills. The Orthodox have frequently sent their kids to Latin Catholic schools, too. Another reason why there’s such a need for good catechesis (East and West). The EC clergy should be over there from time to time to present to the students (all of them) about the ECCs.
I’d say that the EC parents and priests should be discussing this with the Latin parish that runs the schools and arrange a way for them to get a parish discount without transferring. They are not to proselytize us so this practice should be faced directly. The point of that discount business is largely to get the families into Church and practicing their faith. If they’re doing it where they belong (the UGCC or elsewhere) that should satisfy that need.
And we could use more of these “kid” initiated posts and blogs like The Guide to Surviving Roman Catholic School as a Byzantine Catholic on I Love Being A Byzantine Catholic And I Will Never Change My Denomination’s Facebook
D
dvdjs
Guest
So in reality you do want to point at particular situations. You just don’t want to let us know who you are pointing at.
IMO, this is a problem that really stifles productive discussion.
First, the big problem: it makes it impossible to fact check what you, or those responding to you are posting. Details are important - especially if we are using the details to make inferences about “value” and “mindset”. And details get garbled in telling and retelling and in writing and reading. I mentioned on another thread that a bright man had repeatedly posted criticisms of the BCC RDL that were simply and objectively false. Why? Because after a few retellings “some” was hyperbolized to “all”, then the figurative “all” was taken literally. And facts were not checked. Similarly on a recent thread here, there was so much meandering among practices in various churches that it was hard to follow when comments were being made about Oriental vs Byzantine, or Catholic vs Orthodox practice. It was easy to fall into mis-impression.
Second, although this reticence may be intended to protect the innocent, it in fact has the effect of casting suspicion on everyone. It is thus easy for people to take mis-impressions away from such criticisms - or have their own erroneous preconceptions mistakenly confirmed.
Finally, how can we really talk seriously about mindsets without being familiar with the minds in which these mindsets allegedly prevail?
Thus, I am sorry about the way you want to approach this discussion. It makes it harder to be responsive, but you raise interesting issues that I do want to try to address.
Whose tradition is “our” tradition? Are you presupposing a generic Byzantine tradition? There are profound limits to such an idea. You may have noticed these limits from the life of Bishop Dzubay, or the rallying cry in the formation of ACROD. You get the idea.
You also know, I am sure, that we did have daily liturgy with the possibility of daily communion during Lent for a generation or so in the BCC. If you want to make a statement that this practice was a rank vs organic development, then let’s hear the thinking. But please don’t post as though in a manner that can easily be taken as suggesting that this has never been our practice, or that the use of capitals is a sufficient argument. And bear in mind the old adage: each priest has his own typicon. While that may be a lament of abuse, it is certainly a statement of the reality vs theory of tradition.
The key fact that needs to be discussed in this context is the fact that the long-established (if not properly “traditional” practice) of infrequent communion has changed. This departure from “tradition” requires some thinking: is the new practice something that we promote, accept, or oppose? Then, if we accept this as a positive development (as you seem to), what are its broader implications? For example: did the Lenten practices of the past presuppose infrequent communion? If so, what adjustment to Lenten practices is appropriate in light of the change in frequency of communion. Moreover, given the importance of continuity and stability, it is also important to ask not only what adjustment is appropriate, but whether it is truly necessary. Now, I have no idea if anyone who is charge of making such decisions is thinking along these lines, but these are the kind of questions that I think should be being asked.
- I disagree about the “whittling away”, at least in my particular church. We have restored the pre-sanctified liturgy, and are restoring other practices that had fallen into disuse. Latinizations are waning.
- The typicon is made for man, not man for the typicon. Adhering to the typicon is not done just because for the sake of traditionalism or even for its beauty, but from a firm conviction that the path that is blazes and the beauty that it offers is efficacious for the salvation of souls. But that perspective also implies a dutiful vigilance about what maintaining effectiveness.
5
5Loaves
Guest
Seems to me that the same problem that has led to many issues in the Latin Church has led to many issues in the East-- ** lack of good catechesis**. I’m constantly learning more— like the layers of the onion in infinite layers…
Fr David is a great resource.
I’ve not been to St. Elias and doubt I ever will but I’ve corresponded with him and he’s been very helpful and who doesn’t love their website! This is an excellent article! We need this kind of teaching going on all the time. I’ve just been re-reading some of Fr. Schmemann which I’m lobbying for our parish book group to read next.
5
5Loaves
Guest
Our deacon when going to serve in a Latin or other EC parish would be in his* riassa*
outside of services and vested for liturgy. This was “just” a social event. I argued about this on the phone with friend who is a tonsured reader in another parish. He wasn’t going to join me in my “Is outrage!” …: – he was on the fence about this social event. Not me. LOL
D
dvdjs
Guest
I think both posters are of good will and both want the best for the Eastern churches, and that includes not only vigorous numbers but a restoration of practice. Constantine sees wisdom in “tacking”. Ciero does not. Constantine want to preserve what we have and build on it; Ciero thinks we need heavy pruning. Who is right?
I don’t think that the answer is obvious. One can (and so often does that it has become cliche) point to the success of very Eastern parishes like St Elias or others and presume that it proves some point. But does it prove ciero’s point?. Were these parishes part of a hard-pruning exercise? Did their restoration also include, as ciero advises, driving people out? Or was the idea to build anew and draw in a self-selected cohort of parishioners? Very different.
Moreover, there are many examples of parishes that adopt a highly rigorous posture that have not been the great success that St. Elias has been. There is evidently more to the story of what needs to be done, and how it needs to be done. Indeed, if we look at what people call the conversion boomlet in Orthodoxy, it is the jurisdiction that has been the most experimental - the Antiochians - that have experienced the greatest growth, and have thus opened doors for growth to others. And let’s also be clear that the balancing and adaptation that Constantine mentions goes on in ALL jurisdictions. Is anyone having the women stand in the babinec west of the nave? Do we really know enough about our old practices?
I agree that while the ultimate decision making authority likes with our bishops and priests, we all have a responsibility in working to the best possible outcome. To be effective in that that work, it is important to maintain credibility by sticking to facts and cogent argument. This means that while we in the BCC continue to work to implement greater progress, we freely admit the positive trend of restorations in the BCC in the past decade. And we show patience with and concern for those who are behind the curve: you may think they will just go to the Latins; what if they just go nowhere - are you willing to stand before God and acknowledge your complicity in pruning them out, in losing these sheep?
One last remark about ciero’s reference to Rome’s view of our practice. I am glad that Rome has spoken so clearly in its instructions that local Latins should be disinclined to interfere with our restorations. However, I am not interested at all in micromanagement of our liturgical affairs by Rome. IMO, we should be insisting that our practice is up to us, not Roman authority.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
I just wonder how other UGCC parishes in the Toronto area are like, comparing to St. Elias. St. Elias could be unique as far as Ukrainian Catholic parishes in Canada. I wouldn’t mind if one of the 4 parishes in the Vancouver area are made very orthodox like St. Elias so those who wish to pursue the purity of tradition can go there, and those who just like things the way they are can go to the other three.
In a way I see ciero’s point. Whats the point of having an Eastern parish if it resembles every other Roman parish? But at the same time, whats the guarantee that having a very orthodox Byantine Catholic parish will draw in more people? It would be easier to do so if the financial aspect is there. Running a parish is not free and given the recent recession, many people are hard up on their finances as is. Seeing our weekly report on Sunday collections, its worrying how much the parish makes. I come from one of the smaller RC parishes in our area and that small RC parish still makes way, way more in Sunday collections.
D
dvdjs
Guest
I know of no Eastern parish that resembles every other Roman parish. None.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
I mean, not completely literally. But if the practices are quite close then what distinguishes one from the other? Just the form of Liturgy? And if you’re lucky, the Iconostasis?
A
Aramis
Guest
There are one or two that are hard to tell, inside or out… at least in photos.
- Status