The Imposter

[Aloysium]

. . . So I’ll partly answer my own question. A huge proportion of the world’s population would be convinced that the Second Coming had arrived. What I am asking you is what would need to happen to convince you personally that it was happening and how would you know that it was genuine?

What are you talking about? Have you even read the Bible?

 

[Iron_Donkey]

What are you talking about? Have you even read the Bible?

The question is, how would you be sure that it was actually the second coming and not, say, aliens messing with us? It’s a fair question.

But one that shouldn’t particularly bother Catholics, since once we determine that there is a God, and that He would be interested in revealing Himself to us, and that if He did so that He would protect His revelation, and finally come to believe that the Church will not err on such things, then we can follow the Church’s guidance on such matters.

If the Church recognizes that a being is Christ returned then either 1) it’s right, or 2) Christianity is a sham (which would lead me - buy a medium length argument - to nihilism, and so either way it isn’t really a problem as such, either because it’s true or because nothing is true). If the Church leaves the question open, then we continue as normal, making moral judgements as best we can, and then the merciful God will handle any objective mistakes that we make.

 

[snarflemike]

So I’ll partly answer my own question. A huge proportion of the world’s population would be convinced that the Second Coming had arrived. What I am asking you is what would need to happen to convince you personally that it was happening and how would you know that it was genuine?

I would rely on the judgement of the divinely guided Church.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . It’s a fair question . . .

so is mine
what kind of atheist doesn’t know the Bible through and through
what would he know not to believe
all he could truthfully say is that he does not believe in stereotypes, straw men and his own self-delusions

 

[Bradski]

so is mine
what kind of atheist doesn’t know the Bible through and through
what would he know not to believe
all he could truthfully say is that he does not believe in stereotypes, straw men and his own self-delusions

I’m sorry - I’m not sure what point you are making. What does my knowledge of the bible (which is reasonable) have to do with this hypothetical?

 

[tonyrey]

The countless atrocities committed by fanatics throughout history demonstrates that there is no guarantee that an imposter wouldn’t deceive many people but if a person’s words and actions don’t correspond to the example and teaching of Jesus that is enough to detect a liar! “By their fruits you shall know them…”

 

[Paddy_Walker]

well, the aliens couldn’t create themselves if they did not exist, (before the big bang when no matter existed).
so, the question, how would i know if it was an alien, a demon, an evil spirit, the devil, or Christs second coming, which was standing in front of me.
because we already have the gospels and they tell you that if anyone comes preaching another gospel…
as to how you can identify an alien imposter standing in front of you. well the question becomes redundant because the imposter could not cause us to deviate from what we know, so its severely limited in its action and can do us no harm.
of course, if it is the second coming of Christ, we will know it because all of creation will come to an end and everyone will find themselves in heaven, purgatory, or hell.

 

[Bradski]

The countless atrocities committed by fanatics throughout history demonstrates that there is no guarantee that an imposter wouldn’t deceive many people but if a person’s words and actions don’t correspond to the example and teaching of Jesus that is enough to detect a liar! “By their fruits you shall know them…”

But what if they do correspond?

 

[Dorothy]

I would rely on the judgement of the divinely guided Church.

Amen!

 

[Della]

A child does not know its own mother. And vica versa. If a woman gives birth without seeing the child and is later put into a room with half a dozen babies, she will have no idea which is hers.

Sorry, but a child does know it’s own mother’s voice and a mother knows her own child. I don’t know where you are getting your information, but as a man I suppose you can be excused.

And you know God? The Unknowable? I’m not sure you could say that. If you do, you’re way ahead of many people across the ages who would disagree with you.

Of course I know God. He hasn’t hidden himself from us. You have heard of Christmas?

As an atheist, I have been asked on more than one occasion what it would take for me to believe in God. The other side of that coin is: how do you know when your belief is wrong? Take a stroll over to Rapture Ready and I will cast iron guarantee that the majority of people that post there would be 100% convinced the Rapture had arrived if they all started floating skywards. Most of them seem to think the afterlife is like a scene from Heaven Can Wait. Not too difficult for The Imposter.

Why cite fellow Christians with odd ideas about when and how Jesus is to return? Why not cite Buddhists or Hindus? Besides, I used to be one of those folks who believed in a silent, secret rapture, so I know just what they believe. They are not in full union with the Church Christ founded, so of course they are going to have some differing beliefs. But, they all believe that Jesus was God incarnate, just like Catholics. Their conceptions of heaven are speculative, as are ours because we don’t yet know what heaven will be like. Catholicism teaches that we will enjoy the “beautific vision” and nothing more. Pearly gates and streets of gold are the New Jerusalem, which is not heaven but part of the new heavens and the new earth Christ promised. Again, we can only speculate as to just what that imagery means.

So I’ll partly answer my own question. A huge proportion of the world’s population would be convinced that the Second Coming had arrived. What I am asking you is what would need to happen to convince you personally that it was happening and how would you know that it was genuine?

I think it’s debatable that a “huge proportion” would be convinced that the Second Coming had happened. But we don’t have to guess or be convinced of what the Second Coming will be–no alien could match it. We know from Scripture that Jesus will return with all the angels and all those who have died, whose souls have been with him in heaven and then there will be the Final Judgment. If that doesn’t happen, it wouldn’t be Jesus.

Besides, I have to ask–what aliens? We have no proof there are any aliens, only speculation and guesses. If they come down in their space ships and say how-dee-do, I’ll believe they exist. Until then I’ll remain an a-alienist.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

If a member of this civilisation decided to visit us and, for whatever reason, decided to appear to us as God, then how would we know that he wasn’t?

Ever read “chariots of fire”?

 

[Della]

Ever read “chariots of fire”?

Do you mean Chariots of the Gods by Erich Von Daniken? Do you really want to use that as an example when archeologists have dismissed it as nonsense? Or are you being ironic?

The myth of aliens is the modern version of Thor or Zeus or Apollo, etc. But, even myths are not lies, but truth told in story form. C. S. Lewis and Tolkien both talked about this.

In the alien myth, the aliens descend to help us poor backward humans improve our lives. I guess they don’t have a prime directive that prevents them from interferring in our cultural development.

The Christian mythos, which is historical not fanciful, tells us that we are in need of a Savior. Not to “bring us along” but to fundamentally change us into “new creations.” There is a huge difference between them. In the true, historical myth we can partake of divinity itself, obtaining eternal life. In the other we simply rise to a certain level and then go extinct. I prefer the first over the latter.

 

[Alberti_Devoveo]

God probably would not be traveling via space ship.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Do you mean Chariots of the Gods by Erich Von Daniken? Do you really want to use that as an example when archeologists have dismissed it as nonsense? Or are you being ironic?

Dont worry, not trying to disprove a religion. But i share it to show that the concept behind this thread has come up before.

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from my mobile device.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Bradski

**If a member of this civilisation decided to visit us and, for whatever reason, decided to appear to us as God, then how would we know that he wasn’t? **

We could ask him if he would allow us to kill him so that he could rise up again in three days.

 

[Tyrion]

Just a simple thought experiment:

There’s an alien civilisation that is so far ahead of us technologically that they appear god-like (imagine what people in biblical times would think about what we can do today, just over two thousand years later, then extrapolate that to a few million years).

If a member of this civilisation decided to visit us and, for whatever reason, decided to appear to us as God, then how would we know that he wasn’t?

There would be no way. Such a being could perform a “temporary death” (more like a temporary inconvenience), like Jesus was supposed to have done. He could read the “holy” scriptures from afar, and make sure that what he says - conforms with the text. He could travel across space without a spaceship.

The “church” would be unable to make reasoned decision, either. After all the “church” is just a human institution, composed of fallible human beings - and the “claimed” infallibility is just another unsupported claim. The good, old “duck principle” would prevail. If it looks like a “god”, acts like a “god”, talks like a “god”, it is very probably a “god”.

As a matter of fact… I had a “revelation”. God appeared to me and we had a friendly conversation. He said that he does not exist, has never existed, and does not plan to exist in the future. When I asked him how can a nonexistent being conduct a conversation, he smiled (with his imaginary lips) and said that obviously I use my “puny, useless” human logic… after all, he, as an omnipotent being is not constrained by our limited, human logic. So I was told, directly from the “horse’s mouth” that God does not exist… so I could not believe in God any more.

Can anyone prove that it was not a “real” revelation? That I merely had a bad dream? Of course not.

 

[Della]

Dont worry, not trying to disprove a religion. But i share it to show that the concept behind this thread has come up before.

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from my mobile device.

No problem. Yes, the oldies keep popping up again and again, no matter how many times they’ve been discussed and supposedly laid to rest. RIP for this one, as well.

 

[R_C]

I’m sorry - I’m not sure what point you are making. What does my knowledge of the bible (which is reasonable) have to do with this hypothetical?

Reasonable? You have eyes, but you do not see. It would be better for you to refrain from reading the Bible, because your do not seek God, but evidence against God. The Bible is a Rock on which the perpetual house is built, but also anyone who falls on it is shattered, and whosoever it falls on is broken into pieces.

 

[R_C]

There would be no way. Such a being could perform a “temporary death” (more like a temporary inconvenience), like Jesus was supposed to have done. He could read the “holy” scriptures from afar, and make sure that what he says - conforms with the text. He could travel across space without a spaceship.

The “church” would be unable to make reasoned decision, either. After all the “church” is just a human institution, composed of fallible human beings - and the “claimed” infallibility is just another unsupported claim. The good, old “duck principle” would prevail. If it looks like a “god”, acts like a “god”, talks like a “god”, it is very probably a “god”.

You are mistaken. The Church is not a human institution. We have witnessed false apparitions for centuries and a validly ordained priest can command by the authority of the Church for these spiritual apparitions to reveal themselves as they truly are - from God or from the devil - and discern if a person is simply mentally ill or truly experiencing something supernatural. It is very poor intellectual behavior to engage a discussion on a topic you do not believe on, such as the Church’s authority, God, etc. We know things, we have evidence. You neither know nor believe, nor have seen any evidence. I feel very sorry for this attitude makes it very hard to find God even by reason alone.

 

[Tyrion]

You are mistaken. The Church is not a human institution. We have witnessed false apparitions for centuries and a validly ordained priest can command by the authority of the Church for these spiritual apparitions to reveal themselves as they truly are - from God or from the devil - and discern if a person is simply mentally ill or truly experiencing something supernatural.

That is merely a story. As the ancient saying says: “Hic Rodos, hic salta!”. Prove it here and now, do not appeal to stories, which cannot be examined first hand.

It is very poor intellectual behavior to engage a discussion on a topic you do not believe on, such as the Church’s authority, God, etc.

Aha… so unless one already agrees with what you say, they should not engage in a discussion. It is “very poor intellectual behavior” - you say. Well, after this reply you are going to go into the ever-growing pool of those people who are going to be ignored.

We know things, we have evidence. You neither know nor believe, nor have seen any evidence.

Where is the evidence, which is not hearsay?

I feel very sorry for this attitude makes it very hard to find God even by reason alone.

Well, apart from the condescending tone, you contradict the catechism… which states that God can be known by REASON ALONE… too bad that there is not one word about HOW can we know it. Anyhow… good bye. You can reply to this post, but it will remain unseen.