The Indoctrination of your children

[Ben_Quincy]

Stay on topic and do not accuse each other.

Thank you.

 

[inocente]

Oh, not at all dear friend. I understand what you are saying in this thread and I’m not completely disagreeing with you. However, the way you ‘argue’ has much room for improvement. The number of logical fallacies in your comments are astonishing. Let me give you an example: the OP criticised the way that tolerance is taught in secular circles and mentions tolerance museums. You respond by naming the tolerance museum in Israel and call him a Holocaust denier. Nonsensical and in poor taste, don’t you think? In case you’d like a mini online tutorial in logic and the art of constructing an argument I’d be more than happy to help you out.

Interesting discussion btw.

The OP doesn’t say “tolerance museums”, it says “Tolerance Museum”, singular and capitalized, i.e. a title.

According to Google the only museums in the world with that name are the couple of Simon Wiesenthal museums I linked, which have the stated purpose given in that link of “challenging visitors to understand the Holocaust in both historic and contemporary contexts and confront all forms of prejudice and discrimination in our world today”.

Thus it is not at all unreasonable to ask why the OP criticizes that, and the question remains even if we read “Tolerance Museum” to mean something more general: Is it wrong to use examples from history to teach children tolerance, wrong for schools to confront prejudice and discrimination?

I’m still completely unclear what the OP is arguing for, so if you have a view please join the discussion.

 

[inocente]

You make a good point…about general tolerance of others…which (along with personal hygiene and eating habits and sexual activity)…is not the school systems business.

I can’t see how else children can learn tolerance and respect in a multicultural society. Do you want teachers to just ignore it when groups of kids from different backgrounds gang up on each other? If teaching tolerance was left to parents or to all the different religions, how would you know they were teaching tolerance of your religion and not intolerance of your religion?

Which is exactly what I have done here…when I was called a liar…and smeared as a Nazi sympathizer.

Personally I’m only interested in your argument and my questions have been to try to work out exactly what it is, but I’m still unclear.

Take your comment in post #14 “I am against manipulating the primal fears of children (Survival) to indoctrinate them with the idea that all strongly held convictions are obviously bad. Or to teach TOLERATION of every ideology as equally worthy of respect. Both indoctrination techniques achieve the same end: a child that sees Christianity on an equal footing with Islam…etc.”

I don’t see how it is possibly manipulative or indoctrination to teach Christian children respect for Islam and Muslim children respect for Christianity, which btw is something your own Church also teaches (Nostra Aetate 1965):

*The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom. *

 

[Pugsly]

To Inocente:

  Firstly, it is the very nature of education to teach values and a worldview.  As the West secularizes it's public square (over the last 60 years)...public education has not become neutral to religious values.  Public education has EQUALIZED the meaning of all spiritual values....while increasingly making a materialistic, and in many cases anti-christian, worldview  [a worldview which I've outlined here] the new standard for Humanity.  The overall effect is to marginalizes Christianity as just a small, somewhat backward choice in the shopping mall of private spirituality.

  Now, this may shock you....I'm NOT for prayer or Bible lessons or teaching Christian values in Public Schools.....I just don't think there should be "public schools".  The whole system has failed on many levels...and the corruption is widespread...especially at the University level.

For example…Did you know that the United States funded colleges 71 Billion dollars last year…while total tuition cost of college students was about 63 Billion? Where is the free college education that was paid out? Yet we have student loan debt at massive levels. Did it ever occur to you that university professors rail against capitalism and then force the students to buy a $300 dollar textbook that was tweaked a bit from last year so that the students have to buy the lastest edition…while the professors get a large $$$ kickback? Yet, the financial corruption is really nothing compared to the ideological corruption at the University level.

 

[inocente]

To Inocente:

  Firstly, it is the very nature of education to teach values and a worldview.  As the West secularizes it's public square (over the last 60 years)...public education has not become neutral to religious values.  Public education has EQUALIZED the meaning of all spiritual values....while increasingly making a materialistic, and in many cases anti-christian, worldview  [a worldview which I've outlined here] the new standard for Humanity.  The overall effect is to marginalizes Christianity as just a small, somewhat backward choice in the shopping mall of private spirituality.

  Now, this may shock you....I'm NOT for prayer or Bible lessons or teaching Christian values in Public Schools.....I just don't think there should be "public schools".  The whole system has failed on many levels...and the corruption is widespread...especially at the University level.

For example…Did you know that the United States funded colleges 71 Billion dollars last year…while total tuition cost of college students was about 63 Billion? Where is the free college education that was paid out? Yet we have student loan debt at massive levels. Did it ever occur to you that university professors rail against capitalism and then force the students to buy a $300 dollar textbook that was tweaked a bit from last year so that the students have to buy the lastest edition…while the professors get a large $$$ kickback? Yet, the financial corruption is really nothing compared to the ideological corruption at the University level.

OK, I’m a bit clearer on what your beef is but not on your solution.

With no public schools then as a Catholic you can put your kids into a parochial/faith school. Trouble is, if all schools were run by religions, what would you do if you were the only Catholic in town and there was no Catholic school? You could move some place that has one, but if everyone did that you’d have all Hindus living in one town, all Baptists in another, etc. Doesn’t sound too great.

And what if you want your children to be exposed to other faiths so they grow up understanding others?

In any case, your kids will be talking to kids of other faiths on Facebook or Twitter or whatever, they don’t just get their ideals during school hours.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

I have given a well-known example…Tolerance Museums. I’ve given the ethical teaching from the walls of the classrooms…where kids are told to REDUCE their usage of water and energy…WHY? Why not spend time teaching kids how we need to build desalination plants to INCREASE supply.

1. There is nothing wrong with tolerance in and of itself. If it is being taught that all opinions must be treated as though they are all good, then that would be wrong. But tolerance itself is a good thing. Even if we disagree with someone or think they are wrong, we have a moral obligation to respect them as a person and their inherit dignity.
2. I do not see ANY reason that teaching children to take care of the environment is a bad thing. Man was given dominion over the land and the sea and part of that power is the responsibility to care for it.

I really think you are trying to stir the pot and create a problem where none really exists. There are real problems with secularism in this culture, but the points you are bringing up are not hitting those issues.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

A Florida university professor recently had his students write the name JESUS on a blank sheet of paper. Then he instructed his students to put it on the floor and stomp on it. This “lesson” was to teach them tolerance at a college level.

You are absolutely incorrect on this. This story was twisted and turned seven ways to Sunday. The point of the lesson was that MOST students wouldn’t do it, and therefore, was demonstrating that even words on a piece of paper can have a symbolic value.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

I heard this story. Except the first time I heard of someone doing this exercise it was a Sunday School teacher - drawing attention to the importance we place on symbolism and cautioning the students against placing symbols above what they represent. NOT to teach “tolerance”. Yet another case of Catholics lying.

Please do not equate this OP with all Catholics.

 

[Gidge]

While this is all fun and interesting, I think now is the time for you to cite some good source that this is what is being taught in public schools.

Here you go:

johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/

Excellent explanation of education over the past century (free on line).

 

[Pugsly]

CatholicGeek1 says…“I really think you are trying to stir the pot and create a problem where none really exists. There are real problems with secularism in this culture, but the points you are bringing up are not hitting those issues”

My real beef is with liberal Christians and Catholics who facilitate a sweeping philosophical corruption of Christianity…(and a collapse of Western civilization into thuggish paganism)…by obfuscating the issues when cornered. For example, when radical environmentalism is taught in the public schools…so that little children are told to REDUCE their water consumption to “save the Planet”…and then a Christian tells another Christian that this is a good thing…because God told us to be good stewards of the planet.
Here’s another example…my children went through public elementary and middle schools. Each year they had to study Native American culture…yes that’s right EACH YEAR…and do projects and field trips and even listen to lectures from a local native American who told them that the Europeans brought evil to this land and forced them to be Christians against their will. I added up the hours spent on Native American history and compared it to the American Revolutionary history and world history when my son was in 6th grade…it was more than 3-1 in favor of Native American studies.

 

[Pugsly]

1. There is nothing wrong with tolerance in and of itself. If it is being taught that all opinions must be treated as though they are all good, then that would be wrong. But tolerance itself is a good thing. Even if we disagree with someone or think they are wrong, we have a moral obligation to respect them as a person and their inherit dignity.
2. I do not see ANY reason that teaching children to take care of the environment is a bad thing. Man was given dominion over the land and the sea and part of that power is the responsibility to care for it.

I really think you are trying to stir the pot and create a problem where none really exists. There are real problems with secularism in this culture, but the points you are bringing up are not hitting those issues.

Patience is a good thing. Tolerance…is like “change”…it can be quite evil. Most of the German generals in WWII “tolerated” Hitler and the SS’s cruelty.

 

[Pugsly]

And what if you want your children to be exposed to other faiths so they grow up understanding others?

In any case, your kids will be talking to kids of other faiths on Facebook or Twitter or whatever, they don’t just get their ideals during school hours.

Catholic schools that I went to DID teach about other faiths and cultures. However, on this thread I am trying to outline a 4 part worldview of secular philosophy that is sweeping the West.
Today…as we tear out the load-bearing wall of Marriage and our civilization is utterly redefined in this “new” philosophy…it would be nice if Christians atleast understood the basics of this “new” worldview. Yet, Christianity itself is split…with many Christian apologists for the new paganism and its thuggary.

 

[Pugsly]

Now…ofcourse…many Christians just want to talk of love…just want to read pleasant things about humanity…especially during a discussion of a 500 year, philosophical displacement of Western Christianity…that is leading to ruinous paganism, indoctrination of children, persecution and fiscal collapse on a wide scale.

My response…Knowledge without wisdom is cynicism…“In the last days, the hearts of many will grow cold as sin abounds”…Here is the flip side of Western ruin…Widespread pain often drives people toward God.
Brother/sister…many people today are struggling to come to grips with what is happening…(and happening quickly) to Western values, traditions and basic institutions like Marriage. Christians are already under cultural assault.

Now…it is actually COMFORTING to see what is happening in a wider perspective…and to know that God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are with us now and in the coming trials.

The prophet Jeramiah was tossed into a muddy cistern because everyone who heard him thought his message was too bleak and negative. The king’s advisors found “optimistic” prophets and everyone tried to have happy thoughts…as the enemy closed in on the walls of Jerusalem.

 

[ngill09]

Patience is a good thing. Tolerance…is like “change”…it can be quite evil. Most of the German generals in WWII “tolerated” Hitler and the SS’s cruelty.

Ah yes, Nazi Germany: a bastion of tolerance.

 

[inocente]

Catholic schools that I went to DID teach about other faiths and cultures. However, on this thread I am trying to outline a 4 part worldview of secular philosophy that is sweeping the West.
Today…as we tear out the load-bearing wall of Marriage and our civilization is utterly redefined in this “new” philosophy…it would be nice if Christians atleast understood the basics of this “new” worldview. Yet, Christianity itself is split…with many Christian apologists for the new paganism and its thuggary.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

CatholicGeek1 says…“I really think you are trying to stir the pot and create a problem where none really exists. There are real problems with secularism in this culture, but the points you are bringing up are not hitting those issues”

My real beef is with liberal Christians and Catholics who facilitate a sweeping philosophical corruption of Christianity…(and a collapse of Western civilization into thuggish paganism)…by obfuscating the issues when cornered. For example, when radical environmentalism is taught in the public schools…so that little children are told to REDUCE their water consumption to “save the Planet”…and then a Christian tells another Christian that this is a good thing…because God told us to be good stewards of the planet.
Here’s another example…my children went through public elementary and middle schools. Each year they had to study Native American culture…yes that’s right EACH YEAR…and do projects and field trips and even listen to lectures from a local native American who told them that the Europeans brought evil to this land and forced them to be Christians against their will. I added up the hours spent on Native American history and compared it to the American Revolutionary history and world history when my son was in 6th grade…it was more than 3-1 in favor of Native American studies.

Anything can be taken too far. But again, I see no problem with what you are talking about. I see no problem with teaching children to take care of the environment. I see no problem in children learning Native American history. It is an important part of our history and not an altogether pretty part at that.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

A god-free public square generates a lot of worried ethics. Go to any public elementary school and see them almost shouted from the walls: EQUALITY, RESPECT, TOLERANCE, RESPONSIBILITY, SHARING, REDUCE, REUSE, RECYCLE…etc. The anxiety is palpable. And, why not? There is so much to do and so little time! Young children–potential citizens of the great secular city–need to unlearn the inequality of a Created world order and all its “unhealthy” values. Then, they must learn the dangers of following their own, free desires—perhaps, with a trip to the Tolerance Museum. Then, they must thoroughly understand the secular doctrines of Nature, Victim and Survival ethics: which will become a lifelong social expectation called “political correctness”. Eventually, the young, secular adult will soak in the message. They will develop a “social conscience” premised on a cartoon planet wherein battles the loving and enlightened equalizers vs. unhealthy, selfish dominators. And they will carry this battle into all walks of life, giving intense political interpretation to most everything–from baking fat-free cookies to green trash collection to “equality” biased news reporting.
(more on secular ethics in following posts)

What’s with this? The message of “kindness” is screamed at us everywhere in the world, especially in schools, but nowhere is kindness actually exhibited, let alone in schools.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

CatholicGeek1:

Anything can be taken too far.

Sanctity can’t be taken too far