The infallable pope

  • Thread starter Thread starter Irene72
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Excellent post. I would only add that the story of Matthias shows the Apostlic Succession is Biblical. Peter’s power does not die with him. It lives on as Apostolic Succession is proven by Matthias being numbered with the eleven Apostles in Acts.
 
I really wonder how people get comfortable following a spiritual leader who is FALLIBLE even in a specific term such as moral and faith. What happens if such leader ever make mistakes? Although Mr. M follower never mentioned it, their behavior clearly confirm such INFALLIBILITY.
As a former Protestant I can attest that they do not believe that they are following a man’s theology. They believe that they read the Gospels and come to the conclusion. What really occurs is they are told how to interpet scripture in a way that matches their faith. The Pastor pulls verses out of context to support his personal belief. As all of the word of God has truth in it it appears that what the Pastor states is correct.
 
How you can be sure that they have succession is when before Jesus left he breathed on his apostles and as he breathed on then he gave them the Gift of the Holy Spirit, and He said what my Father has given me I have now given you. Jesus had the authority from his Father to do that, and he passed it on to his apostles, which now (beings that they have the authority now) can pass it down the same way Jesus did. Thats how you can be sure that the Pope is always correct. The reason he is the leader is because he was picked by God (when Jesus asked who am I Peter answered) and thats when Jesus changed Peters name and said FLESH AND BLOOD DID NOT REVEAL THIS TO YOU. Then you know the rest, If you go back in history Peter means Papa, then Pope. It all goes back also to the name Jesus gave Peter.
 
Why do you think the subset of the deposit of faith that is the bible is the authority who (which) decides the correctness of the election of a Pope and his infallibility?
**We Don’t because the Magisterium of the Catholic Church and Faith
is built on the Revelation of Christ once revealed.
The same recorded in Scripture
And we believe that the Holy Scriptures are completed , explained
and interpreted by the Holy Tradition and that this is found at its best is found in the Seven Ecumenical Councils and the consensus of the Greek Fathers of the First Centuries.

There is not in either Scripture,Holy Tradition or Catholic History any proof at all of the Pope’s Jurisdiction or Infallibility.**
 
Irene,

we view the church as existing well before the New Testament was canonised and younger even than the time of the individual writings.

If you are looking at scriptural evidence though, i’d put forward the idea that the scriptures plainly make Peter the leader.

I’d reference Jesus’ words in Matthew 16 with Isaiah 22:22 and the continuation of the Jewish High Priesthood with Peter.
The book to the Hebrews deals with the ‘New Judaism’ of Christianity. This was the first church. They were closest to the historical Jesus on earth.

I’d reference the loosing and binding as pointing the infallibility on morals.

I’d point to the widespread description in the scriptures and early writings of ‘laying on hands’ to denote the handing on of authority after the fall of the Jewish temple system (see Hebrews).

I’d point to John’s description of Jesus sprecifically telling Peter three times to care, guide and shepard his sheep.

Jesus often spoke of himself as the shepard, and the usage of the same word (sheparding) in John’s gospel is significant. The Jewish idea since Moses was that the high priest was the temporary steward acting on behalf of God on earth.

For me personally, even before i start looking at the bible it just makes sense to have a church which of course has a head. This was the nature of the Jewish understanding of Church since Moses and Jesus spoke on earth about ‘obeying those on the seat of Moses’, even if they act badly. He never spoke of the destruction of the priesthood or its abolition. He did speak about tearing down the temple and building it again.

Without a heirachy of Church you never would have had agreement on what was a canonised list of New testamant writings. It would have been a mess. It would make Jesus actions / personality / reason for coming and divinity claims arbitrary and up for grabs depending on who has the most charisma at any one particular time.

For me the continuing miracles in the church is the further clarification down the centuries for that presence.

Otherwise it just looks an arbitrary mess and, for me personally, detracts from the validity claims of Christianity.

But that’s me.

If we put our faith in the bible alone, we are ignoring that there needed a church to write and authorise and explain the bible.
We are also dismissing the Jewish idea of high Priest stewardship.
We are also ignoring the very early church who didn’t have a bible and the many generations of Christians in later generations down the centuries who did not have access to the written word, because of many factors including the heavy dependency on agricultural labour and the heavy costs of hand writing copies on animal hides.

It’s only since the cheap invention of paper (China) and the printing press (Germany) and the Industrial revolution (Great Britain) and the mass innoculation against disease (France) that allows today the access to affordable, relatively cheap education supplied by healthy, stable, concentrated urban populations that produce the mass printing of bibles.

But that is a latter development in my opinion and is totally out of step with the history of Christianity. It is a great improvement and a good thing, but i think building a Christinity with the bible as the total base i think cuts itself off from historical Christianity which to me, cuts at the very heart of the validity claims of Christianity and is not a good thing if as part of that, the Christian history is thrown overboard.

Christian history, as i see it, is a connection to the time of Jesus.
Cutting out part of that history makes for a weaker Christianity, not stronger IMHO.

A reliance on the bible alone MAY work for salvation (which is the most important thing - agreed) but does not make sense for a complete historical view of the true Jewish-Christianity (or Christianity) itself from 33 A.D IMHO.

God bless.
abucs,

After reading your post, I’m left wondering what was the Old Testament equivalent of Papal Infallibility?
 
abucs,

After reading your post, I’m left wondering what was the Old Testament equivalent of Papal Infallibility?
Caiaphas.

Probably not a good exegetical reason to uphold the infallibility of ecclesiastical officials 😛
 
When Jesus spoke to his Apostle’s, giving Peter authority to rule his church here on earth, he told him ** “What you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven, what you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven”. **This starts the papacy of St. Peter. Jesus then told the rest of his Apostle’s when he breathed the holy Spirit onto them that **“Whatever sins you forgive are forgiven them, whatever sins you retain are retained”.**This starts the bishops and the priests.

Pretty clear to me.
Clarify what started when Jesus rebuked Peter (btw, you say “spoke to his Apostles, giving Peter” your proof?) “Get behind me Satan! You (sing.) are an offense to Me, for you are not mindfull of the things of God, but of men”?
 
Why do you think the subset of the deposit of faith that is the bible is the authority who (which) decides the correctness of the election of a Pope and his infallibility?
How is the charism of “infallibility” conferred without a sacrament?
 
Irene,

we view the church as existing well before the New Testament was canonised and younger even than the time of the individual writings.

If you are looking at scriptural evidence though, i’d put forward the idea that the scriptures plainly make Peter the leader.

I’d reference Jesus’ words in Matthew 16 with Isaiah 22:22 and the continuation of the Jewish High Priesthood with Peter.
The book to the Hebrews deals with the ‘New Judaism’ of Christianity. This was the first church. They were closest to the historical Jesus on earth.

I’d reference the loosing and binding as pointing the infallibility on morals.

I’d point to the widespread description in the scriptures and early writings of ‘laying on hands’ to denote the handing on of authority after the fall of the Jewish temple system (see Hebrews).

I’d point to John’s description of Jesus sprecifically telling Peter three times to care, guide and shepard his sheep.

Jesus often spoke of himself as the shepard, and the usage of the same word (sheparding) in John’s gospel is significant. The Jewish idea since Moses was that the high priest was the temporary steward acting on behalf of God on earth.

For me personally, even before i start looking at the bible it just makes sense to have a church which of course has a head. This was the nature of the Jewish understanding of Church since Moses and Jesus spoke on earth about ‘obeying those on the seat of Moses’, even if they act badly. He never spoke of the destruction of the priesthood or its abolition. He did speak about tearing down the temple and building it again.

Without a heirachy of Church you never would have had agreement on what was a canonised list of New testamant writings. It would have been a mess. It would make Jesus actions / personality / reason for coming and divinity claims arbitrary and up for grabs depending on who has the most charisma at any one particular time.

For me the continuing miracles in the church is the further clarification down the centuries for that presence.

Otherwise it just looks an arbitrary mess and, for me personally, detracts from the validity claims of Christianity.

But that’s me.

If we put our faith in the bible alone, we are ignoring that there needed a church to write and authorise and explain the bible.
We are also dismissing the Jewish idea of high Priest stewardship.
We are also ignoring the very early church who didn’t have a bible and the many generations of Christians in later generations down the centuries who did not have access to the written word, because of many factors including the heavy dependency on agricultural labour and the heavy costs of hand writing copies on animal hides.

It’s only since the cheap invention of paper (China) and the printing press (Germany) and the Industrial revolution (Great Britain) and the mass innoculation against disease (France) that allows today the access to affordable, relatively cheap education supplied by healthy, stable, concentrated urban populations that produce the mass printing of bibles.

But that is a latter development in my opinion and is totally out of step with the history of Christianity. It is a great improvement and a good thing, but i think building a Christinity with the bible as the total base i think cuts itself off from historical Christianity which to me, cuts at the very heart of the validity claims of Christianity and is not a good thing if as part of that, the Christian history is thrown overboard.

Christian history, as i see it, is a connection to the time of Jesus.
Cutting out part of that history makes for a weaker Christianity, not stronger IMHO.

A reliance on the bible alone MAY work for salvation (which is the most important thing - agreed) but does not make sense for a complete historical view of the true Jewish-Christianity (or Christianity) itself from 33 A.D IMHO.

God bless.
For the most part correct, but on the Isaiah reference (complete with ignorance of verse 25), see this thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=264493
 
Excellent post. I would only add that the story of Matthias shows the Apostlic Succession is Biblical. Peter’s power does not die with him. It lives on as Apostolic Succession is proven by Matthias being numbered with the eleven Apostles in Acts.
So St. Matthias is a Pope?
 
How you can be sure that they have succession is when before Jesus left he breathed on his apostles and as he breathed on then he gave them the Gift of the Holy Spirit, and He said what my Father has given me I have now given you. Jesus had the authority from his Father to do that, and he passed it on to his apostles, which now (beings that they have the authority now) can pass it down the same way Jesus did. Thats how you can be sure that the Pope is always correct. The reason he is the leader is because he was picked by God (when Jesus asked who am I Peter answered) and thats when Jesus changed Peters name and said FLESH AND BLOOD DID NOT REVEAL THIS TO YOU. Then you know the rest, If you go back in history Peter means Papa, then Pope. It all goes back also to the name Jesus gave Peter.
Christ breathed on ALL the Apostles.
 
Because we see that you miss all the point that we answered. Your name not even mentioned in the bible, and yet you are still exist. No Protestant, Episcopalian, whatever denomination mentioned in the bible, and yet there are exist. You cannot explain this fact, but rather avoiding the issue. The same thing also about Trinity which was not mentioned in the bible, and yet all (except Mormon and JW) Christians accept it. You can not take the development of faith but rather make a self conclusion. Come on, that kind of thinking and logic can come only from the follower of Mr. M.
**Your name is not mentioned in the Bible and yet you still exist!
**
ButWe are all members of Christ through baptism and members of His Body The Church of which Christ is the Head<

HE is mentioned in the Bible and The Holy Catholic Church is also>
 
Clarify what started when Jesus rebuked Peter (btw, you say “spoke to his Apostles, giving Peter” your proof?) “Get behind me Satan! You (sing.) are an offense to Me, for you are not mindfull of the things of God, but of men”?
Is it an official teaching of the Orthodox Churches that Peter once was Satan?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs
Why do you think the subset of the deposit of faith that is the bible is the authority who (which) decides the correctness of the election of a Pope and his infallibility?

How is the charism of “infallibility” conferred without a sacrament?
What is the sacrament which confers infallibility?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top