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mercygate
Guest
Bingo! (to use a term that has largely been discarded in Catholic churches).
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TriuneUnity
Guest
What do I win, what do I win!??
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mercygate
Guest
A free box of offering envelopes in exchange for a (thank you, Lord!) bingo-free zone.
Now back to your regularly scheduled topic.
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Peter_J
Guest
If memory serves, Catherine of Siena told one of the Avignon Popes that he would lose his salvation if he didn’t move back to Rome.Right now, I can think of only one instance, however I am sure there were a few challengers in the history of the Church. In this one instance and I’ll be darned if I can remember who, what, when, but one of the Saints, female, who later became a Doctor of the Church did challenge one of the Popes. In fact, I think she “SLAPPED”him. The nerve.
Maybe someone else here can remember the involved parties?? As I said, I am sure there are many more instances, but I am not familiar with them. Sorry.
I never heard anything about a “slapping”. Although it does make me think of the book “Rilla of Ingleside” (one of the “Anne” books) when, after hearing some bad news about how World War I was going, Susan exclaimed “I could spank Constantine and skin him alive afterwards, that I could.”
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nonjuror
Guest
===============================================Maybe this will help. If you want further info. go to:
newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm
“The oldest literature of the Church”, says Professor Harnack, (Adolf von Harnack)
fashioned the historicopositivist approach to the theology and origin of Christianity, which characterized the study of religion in the first half of the 20th century.
“is, in the main points and in most of its details, from the point of view of literary history, veracious and trustworthy . . . .
He who attentively studies these letters (those i.e. of Clement and Ignatius) cannot fail to see what a fullness of traditions, topics of preaching, doctrines, and forms of organization already existed in the time of Trajan (A.D. 98-117), and in particular churches had reached permanence” (Chronologie der altchristlichen Literature, Bk. I, pp. 8, 11).
According to the accepted chronology, these (Christ’s Apostles) began their mission on the day of Pentecost, A.D. 29, which day is regarded, accordingly, as the birthday of the Christian Church.
John Chapter 14
Christ’s discourse after his last supper
15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever: Paraclete… That is, a comforter: or also an advocate; inasmuch as by inspiring prayer, he prays, as it were, in us, and pleads for us. For ever… Hence it is EVIDENT that this Spirit of Truth was NOT ONLY promised to the persons of the apostles, BUT ALSO TO THEIR SUCCESSORS THROUGH ALL GENERATIONS.
And so, even though Peter may have flubbed up in his first teachings, he was corrected by others and came around to the proper way of expanding the teachings of Christ. Therefore he was infallible in his teachings of CHRIST’S WORD through the protection of the Holy Spirti.
**Regarding Von Harnack?
Seems a nice chap and all that, but who is he in 2000yrs of history and scholarship?
Cardinal Newman and a 17th, Cent bishop of ours both said
that if it’s new it isn’t catholic!! A generalisation? I agree, but as a principle it facilitates a right understand of the catholic principle as enunciated by the Canon of Lerins
First of all an idea or question must be tried by scripture, that is the ultimate authority! If men differ on the interpretation of scripture, the rule must be supplemented by an appeal to that authority which is supplied by universality, antiquity and consent!
When it has been the faith of the whole church; when it has been held through all ages, or almost all and those of the fathers whose office and character give authority then it can be accepted.
Unfortunately, neither your good self or Von Harnack are sufficient to stand as guarantors of the faith in this instance. This is not to denigrate or ridicule, it is simply stating the truth. Rome is not the Church, (simply an errant part of the it) and neither Anglicanism or Orthodoxy admit to that particular interpretation so the question is still open to say the least.**
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elts1956
Guest
Okay so I’m not a theolgian, but the info. did come from a Catholic website which I gave. (above) But then one can believe or disbelieve anything one want to believe or disbelieve.
As far as I am concerned, the question is no longer open. Peace.
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mercygate
Guest
van Harnack, of course, was Lutheran.
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elts1956
Guest
And Jewish?? And most of what I answered was from his quotes out of the Bible and his defense of the Roman Catholic Church’s interpretation. Go figure! But I am a good quoter.
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mercygate
Guest
von Harnack Jewish? I have seen nothing to corroborate that.And Jewish?? And most of what I answered was from his quotes out of the Bible and his defense of the Roman Catholic Church’s interpretation. Go figure! But I am a good quoter.
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mercygate
Guest
von Harnack Jewish? I have seen nothing to corroborate that.And Jewish?? And most of what I answered was from his quotes out of the Bible and his defense of the Roman Catholic Church’s interpretation. Go figure! But I am a good quoter.
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elts1956
Guest
Me neither. Just wondering.
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mercygate
Guest
I checked his biography; no mention of anything other than Protestant forbears.
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elts1956
Guest
I checked too and couldn’t find a thing to support myself. Gues he was pure German through and through.
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ron77nyc
Guest
Does anyone know what the infallible statements or infallible teachings of the Church are besides the 2 regarding the Bleesed Mother?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Perhaps this will help, ron, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2032
The Church, the “pillar and bulwark of the truth,” "has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth."74 "To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls."75
[2033](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2033.htm’)
The Magisterium of the Pastors of the Church in moral matters is ordinarily exercised in catechesis and preaching, with the help of the works of theologians and spiritual authors. Thus from generation to generation, under the aegis and vigilance of the pastors, the “deposit” of Christian moral teaching has been handed on, a deposit composed of a characteristic body of rules, commandments, and virtues proceeding from faith in Christ and animated by charity. Alongside the Creed and the Our Father, the basis for this catechesis has traditionally been the Decalogue which sets out the principles of moral life valid for all men.
2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice."76 The *ordinary *and universal *Magisterium *of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.
2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.77
[2036](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2036.htm’) The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.78 [2037](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2037.htm’) The law of God entrusted to the Church is taught to the faithful as the way of life and truth. The faithful therefore have the *right *to be instructed in the divine saving precepts that purify judgment and, with grace, heal wounded human reason.79 They have the *duty *of observing the constitutions and decrees conveyed by the legitimate authority of the Church. Even if they concern disciplinary matters, these determinations call for docility in charity.
2032
The Church, the “pillar and bulwark of the truth,” "has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth."74 "To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls."75
[2033](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/2033.htm’) The Magisterium of the Pastors of the Church in moral matters is ordinarily exercised in catechesis and preaching, with the help of the works of theologians and spiritual authors. Thus from generation to generation, under the aegis and vigilance of the pastors, the “deposit” of Christian moral teaching has been handed on, a deposit composed of a characteristic body of rules, commandments, and virtues proceeding from faith in Christ and animated by charity. Alongside the Creed and the Our Father, the basis for this catechesis has traditionally been the Decalogue which sets out the principles of moral life valid for all men.2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice."76 The *ordinary *and universal *Magisterium *of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.
2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.77
[2036](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/2036.htm’) The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.78 [2037](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2037.htm’) The law of God entrusted to the Church is taught to the faithful as the way of life and truth. The faithful therefore have the *right *to be instructed in the divine saving precepts that purify judgment and, with grace, heal wounded human reason.79 They have the *duty *of observing the constitutions and decrees conveyed by the legitimate authority of the Church. Even if they concern disciplinary matters, these determinations call for docility in charity.
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mercygate
Guest
Here’s a brief summary of teaching on what is infallible teaching.
(http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/jyoung.html)
Clarifying terms
Now to clarify some terms. Extraordinary Magisterium refers to a special exercise of their teaching office by either the Pope and bishops together, or the Pope alone, in which a definitive judgment is given. When a General Council pronounces a solemn definition, this is an exercise of the extraordinary Magisterium. So is an ex cathedra definition by the Pope: a decision definitively settling the question.
By contrast ordinary Magisterium refers to the exercise of the teaching office without a solemn definition being given. This is the case with the day-today teaching of bishops in their dioceses, or the greater part-almost the entire part-of the Popes teaching. (Much in these categories, however, has already been defined infallibly.)
The term ordinary universal Magisterium means an exercise of the Church’s teaching office where there is complete agreement, or fairly close to complete agreement, among the Catholic Bishops of the world that a particular doctrine is certainly true, but without a solemn definition.
The extraordinary Magisterium is infallible. A definition given by a General Council or an ex cathedra definition by a Pope cannot be erroneous. Likewise, the ordinary universal Magisterium is infallible. The fact that the bishops are dispersed throughout the world’ (in the words of Vatican II quoted above) does not make any difference.
What of the ordinary (but not universal) Magisterium? Is it infallible? No, as Vatican II indicates in the quotation above concerning statements that are not ex cathedra.
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ron77nyc
Guest
Thanks. That info is available but is there a plain and easy to understand and complete list of infallible statements that the Church has put in writing?
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mercygate
Guest
Keep asking. I saw a list of some 300 points someplace some time ago. Nothing deep. Just a check list.
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Peter_J
Guest
I would say No, no one knows how many ex cathedra statements there have been. But people certainly have strong opinions about it. In particular, some Catholics say (quite confidently) that there have only been two (1854 and 1950). Other Catholics say (equally confidently) that there have been others like Unam Sanctum in 1302.
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ron77nyc
Guest
This disturbs me and I don’t know why it’s not disturbing to everyone because everyone is supposed to accept this as a foundation of faith. This is another one of those confusing things people talk about with great conviction but no one is really sure of what it encompasses. Some people say only 2 while others say about 300. I found a website that gives a long list but it’s not an official Catholic document so no one can say if it is approved of by the Church.
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